Since 1978 we have been working with waste streams as the feedstocks for biofuels.Like most others, I started making Ethanol from grains I got mine from the Mill that was located very conveniently down the road from me.. I also used the sweepings and grain dust as well as the ground grains. but when the mill burned down I found myself with a logistical problem for a few weeks, I ran my ethanol plant on scorched grain five tons of which I had the mill owners dump next to my distillery. after we consumed all the scorched grain which worked very well although the ethanol smelt of smoke. I was in a quandry as to what i would use to keep my distillery running.. A friend of mine suggested that i go to the next town where the Quaker oats plant was loscted to see if they had any  wastes that were fermentable. This i did and when i asked the manager if he had anything i could use he told me he had seven tons of rice cakes in a dumpster  behind his facility I took this back to my distillery and fermented it and in three days had a fermented mash to run in my distillery.. I wnt back and told the manager i would gladly take all  of this waste he had, he then told me of another  dumpster he had behind the plant and when i looked at it I found that it was a dumpster full of bright pink gatoraid powder. so i told him i would take all of that he had also. (seven tons) I ran my plant on these wastes for years and added to the mix aapple pulp from the local cider mills as well these were the only feedstocks i ran on for years untill the quaker oats plant moved out of state. from then on i approached all manner of food production facilities so my  distillery ran on local  waste streams with great success.. when biodiesel became the vogue i ran it on the waste oils from local restaurants as well as from a large renderer in my area. in the meantime I started my work in exploring  the algae i grew in my closed loop ecosystem as a source ofoil for biodiesel production..work which is ongoing at this time. so over the years i have learned not by theorizing or conjecture  but by practical application ,that waste streams are a viable source of feedstocks for many biofuels. In fact that is our speciality here at ecogenics center (besides our research in algae to biofuels production..) most recently we took a barrell of wastes from Mckee industries (little debbies cakes) and made not only biodiesel but ethanol from the same feedstock...you can see pix of this on our website

 consider this there are millions of tons of wastes in our country thatr can provide all the feedstock for biofuels that we need... resource recovery and waste stream recovery can offer the solution to providing the nations fuel supply. I often muse upon how misguided the search for alternative energy feedstocks has been here in the U.S.  Ill say with impunity.. most all our biofuel needs can be met by utilising the almost limitless waste streams of this nation thereby assuring the national security by solving the waste stream remediation problems and at the same time providing a redily acvasilable cornocopia of feedstocks for both gaseous and liquid biofuels... what could be better and more practical than this???

Marc www.ecogenicsresearchcenter.org

ecogenics3:

 consider this there are millions of tons of wastes in our country thatr can provide all the feedstock for biofuels that we need... resource recovery and waste stream recovery can offer the solution to providing the nations fuel supply. I often muse upon how misguided the search for alternative energy feedstocks has been here in the U.S.  Ill say with impunity.. most all our biofuel needs can be met by utilising the almost limitless waste streams of this nation thereby assuring the national security by solving the waste stream remediation problems and at the same time providing a redily acvasilable cornocopia of feedstocks for both gaseous and liquid biofuels... what could be better and more practical than this???

Each person in the USA produces ~ 4lbs of direct waste/day. If one adds grass clippings, ag waste and all the other biomass that is laying around... Marc is not quite right about the 'par with energy' but it would be well over 50% of our current energy burn needs, IF we could thermodynamically harvest and process this waste into energy efficiently.

So let me ask Marc this question... If what you say is true, that we cannot even process our own waste to energy because of economics, what makes you think we can grow our own energy economically?

Or let me ask this instead, if we cannot economically convert 11% solids dairy manure into energy, what makes you think we can process .1% solids in an algae pond economically?

froggy,

 where do I say we cannot convert waste to energy economically? we absolutly can. weve done it over and over again we have produced feasability study after feasability study showing thast i will work all these based on real time work not theory and conjecture

 methane digestors are common place to handle feedlot wastes as well as human wastes gasifiers exist and are used  in many places,though not enough.,  if you consider that one could easily arrange to receive the tipping fees that landfills get and then take the wastes and process them into fuels and power, the economics are very favorable what better solution than to change the way municipalities handle the problem of waste disposal than to convert them into fuels? and by doing so decentralise the fuel economy

 the landfills still burn off billions of btu's of methane why is it not par for the course to take that gas and cogenerate power..  the La puente landfill in california is a case in point.... by recovering the methane and running generators instead of flaming it, the landfill produces power for well over 150 thousand people (if my memory serves me well)

 our case is another example.. the  landfill tipping fees average seven dollars per ton, a food manufacturor dumps 75 thousand pounds of food wastes per week paying to land fill it.

 we demonstrated that we can take that waste and produce ethanol AND biodiesel from it. two fuels from the same waste. we showed it can be done.

 so the question should be why arent communities striving to recover thier waste streams and convert them into fuels and energy.???? go figure.  we are drowning ourselves in garbage polluting land and water with it

 as the population grows ,so do the waste streams why in heavens name arent we taking this waste and producing fuels from it?? dont tell me that it isnt economical ,we have done it and have the hard numbers to prove the feasability of resource recovery in our compendium of financial studies. the same goes for cellulose to ethanol and methane digestion.,gasification when using the processes to cogenerate power....

mix the waste to energy equation with algae and other biomass processing and the problems can be solved with the proper support from the government and the business community

.another seventy  billion dollars have been allocated by congress for wars... what would happen if that money were used for energy production.?. the energy bill that was passed was just another ploy to fatten the pockets of the major corn and soybean growers.. using food  for fuel  is a dead end.

 give us  that seventy  billion dollars to make these renewable technologies a commonplace part of our way of life instead of creating more quadraplegics and multiple amputees from our youth while the living standard of our country goes down the toilet...

when I think that two hundred and some odd years ago our forefathers whipped the mightiest empire in the world because they taxed our whisky and tobacco and exploited us and nowadays we are bled  dry of not only our money, but all our resources, and all our jobs and products are outsourced to foreign countries. it makes me want to puke.... why did they impose such a low fuel economy standard why not fifty or seventyfive miles per gallon? can you honestly tell me that a country that conquered space cant build a decent car that can attain that kind of fuel economy??? lets get real folks. as long as complacency rules the common will ,we will continue to degrade this once great nation into third rate status

.if one studies the history of the roman empire one can see a reflection of what is happening to us......... what a crying shame...

marc

ecogenics3:

 where do I say we cannot convert waste to energy economically?     ......   so the question should be why arent communities striving to recover thier waste streams and convert them into fuels and energy.???? go figure.  we are drowning ourselves in garbage polluting land and water with it  

Because according to most actual accounts of AD systems, they are a very large economic loser. If you can garner a tipping fee, that might help the economics. If you are in warmer clime's, the economics gets progressively better. The bigger the scale, the better the economics but ofcourse biomass is generally not on the kind of scale that it takes for 'large scale' biomethane op's. And as you scale your system, you quickly reach saturation of your 'niche' products (such as 8$/qt for fertilizer) so the economics becomes squeezed. And as soon as you have to start paying for your 'tipping fee', your toast.

Its not about physically doing it, its about economics and my contention is that AD systems rarely if ever make $. I agree that we are drowning in our own garbage but AD is too inefficient to be viable. There has to be a better way.

froggy,

 you  didnt factor in the energy production  credits  and incentives that are available when cogenerating electric power from waste streams.

 those can be  considerable if done as part and parcel of landfill operations as was demonstrated at lapuente hills calif.

 then the Roi becomes extremely attractive. garbage rather than a liability ,can become a "Goldmine"a veritable cornucopia of fuel and power and sustainability

 since they took out the funding for wind power we should  insist, as citizens, that waste to energy programs be funded instead. 

 where is the voice of the people?? we allow ourselves to be led down the primrose path by self serving cretans that should have been run out on a rail a long time ago. what has happened to the character of america that allows itself to be bent over and  reamed where the sun dont shine?? what happened to the collective will of the people that once made this country the shining light of hope for others to look up to? all our efforts and discussions are like pissing into the wind we must unite and act now before it is too late... I understand that.there are twenty thousand people that look at this forum.. imagine what could be done if they spoke out as a body?????

ecogenics3:

 you  didnt factor in the energy production  credits  and incentives that are available when cogenerating electric power from waste streams.

 those can be  considerable if done as part and parcel of landfill operations as was demonstrated at lapuente hills calif.

 then the Roi becomes extremely attractive. garbage rather than a liability ,can become a "Goldmine"a veritable cornucopia of fuel and power and sustainability

Im afraid that I cannot find one AD system in my area that is cash flow positive given present day circumstances and pricing. Not one. I will admit that the more north you go, the harder the economics works because feedstocks become smaller and heating becomes an issue. Only given very large subsidies and credits can the economics even come close. There are many co's that went broke in the AD business. Dont believe me? Quoting 2007 NRCS;

aha! froggy  now I understand where you are coming from. and I agree,but stand alone anaerobic digestors are not what im suggesting, rather a mix of technologies  utilizing RFD, AD, recycling of metals and glass, gasification, cogeneration, of electricity ,composting , distillation, transesterification ,and many other techs combined into a total  resource recovery package.using existing technology. the combination of elements will assure the redundancy needed for success and efficiency. Ill post some numbers later based on a system that we designed for our county some time ago. this will give you a clearer picture of what we consider is possible at this time.. all segments are state of the art.so there is no question that the combination would be feasable.. the landfills would then be turned into Energy farms....harvesting the endless stream of resource rich wastes generated by the  region,cityor community that the system would serve.

I agree that growing algae is the wrong focus when there are so many untapped sources of feedstocks.

I agree that one correct focus is to focus on the existing feedstocks of 'waste' products into value added products.

I agree that there are many viable technologies to choose from, such as gasification.

I dont agree that AD and/or fermintation is the way to go because of the in-efficiencies of the systems which means the economics never work out as history has shown without massive subsidies.

One issue with gasification is that one needs high % solids and therefore useless on wet biomass unless dewatering techniques are used which can have a huge impact on the thermodynamic and economic bottom lines. Yet wet waste is a massive untapped resource that should be a huge focus.

froggy,

 I did not  imply that algae was not a viable feedstock. I said that it should definity be considered as a feedstock just as i have said that no one feedstock should be depended upon as a stand alone source. we must utilise a mix of all feedstocks as well as a mix of all available technologies all working in consert..

 Marc