Hello everyone,

I have a few questions thats been niggling me for awhile now. First off, what is the cost of production of oil from algae today? Im just looking for an approximate estimate. I heard from some unreliable source that algae strains that have a high percentage of lipid content generally tend to have an aggressive growth rate as well. Is that true?

The factors that infuence the cost of oil production from algae? How many gallons of oil could be got from a tonne(1000 Kg) of algal biomass. I know that depends on the strain of algae used but Im just looking for an approximate value.

Good morning, welcome, and lots of luck finding those answere. Everyone, and I meean EVERYONE, is looking for the correct answers for your questions. For now, there are no reliable answers. Still many years away.

Hi Nesna and welcome.

Algae has been grown for since forever. Astecs grew it for food and today it is grown in huge quantities for chemical and pharmacuetical extractions. You will not be able to obtain costs of production from these companies because it is part of their marketing cost and they do not want you to know what it costs to produce 1 kilo of algae. Even if you couldget their price per kilo they are growing to obtain peak levels of different chemicals which require different inputs than those for growing peak lipids.

In regard to algae for oil, as noted above, nobody has these numbers yet. There are dozens of inputs that affect the final outcome like the volume of Co2, how much nutrient and what chemical make up forms the nutrient, best temp and cost of maintaining this - I could go on but the list is not exhaustive because we are going to be trying to squeeze the highest volume of oil for the lowest price for ever.

Hopefully in the not to distant future someone on this forum will be able to show results that will have some relevance to mass production costs but until then it is a thumb suck.

Nesna,

No one has solid answers - the last one I saw was $10 / gallon - but that was from someone oppossing oil from algae.  Obviously, we need to drive that down.  High pervcentage of oil does not lead to fast growth - for instance BB has up to 80% oil, but grows slowly.

Lots of things will affect cost - land, water, fertlizer, labor, equipment - sounds like a farm.

From 1000 kg expect to get 200 to 800 kg of oil.

Hi Nesna,

I like your questions.   I can give you an example of one company "Valcent" and show you 2 very disparate projections about the production cost for one barrel of oil.     Note that these projections are not known, by me, to have come from the company.    From the comments in the oil_from_algae group at yahoo, one person mentions 36 dollars a barrel and in the other case, from the comments to a video interview of the Valcent CEO, one person suggests 800 dollars a barrel.   Here's those links...

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/oil_from_algae/message/7488

http://www.scribemedia.org/2007/11/15/glen-kertz-valcent-vertigro-algae-biofuel/

Also, your question about how many gallons of oil from a ton of algal biomass, has me thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 125 gallons, if some of the strains have the purported 50 to 60 percent lipids and if you have the methods to get out every last drop.    I've read some things about the methods being available. 

http://www.oilgae.com/algae/oil/extract/extract.html

@liberty1 

 I read from the wikipedia website that although BB has a high oil percentage, the kind of oil that it produces cannot be used in the transesterification process to make biodiesel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botryococcus_braunii

It seems some process called hydrocracking needs to be used to make useable from BB oil. 

And are you sure, from 1000kg you could get 200 to 800 kg of oil? Cos if that is the case, then algae biodiesel would have been common by now. 

@slippery 

I guess, you're right about not being able to obtain the cost involved in making a gallon of oil from algae. But Im sure there must be an approximate estimate for the amount of oil that can be got from a tonne(1000 kg) of algal biomass because Im a bit doubtful of the 200 to 800 kg of oil/tonne given by 'liberty'. I know it varies for each and every strain depending on the percentage of lipids and its rate of growth but im just looking for a ballpark figure. Lets assume that the algae we're using has 35% lipids. What could be the amount of oil per tonne(1000kg) that could be got from such a strain of algae. If I could get that information, I could get a spatial figure for how much oil could be got from algae that have different lipid percentages. 

Thank you. 

Hi Nesna, welcome aboard! 

nesna:

  I guess, you're right about not being able to obtain the cost involved in making a gallon of oil from algae.

How much does it cost to build a hotel on pluto? Or one on the bottom of the ocean? The answer is that because no one has done it, nor have a good idea on how to do it, there is no way to really know the cost of a barrel of algoil. Someday, we will.

What we CAN assume is that its considerably higher than a regular barrel of dino oil at todays pricing because no one is doing it.

nesna:

But Im sure there must be an approximate estimate for the amount of oil that can be got from a tonne(1000 kg) of algal biomass because Im a bit doubtful of the 200 to 800 kg of oil/tonne given by 'liberty'. 

My friend liberty based his guesstimation on the concept that the correct algae to make algoil is somewhere in the 20% to 80% range. I would narrow that range to more like 10% to 60%. The Liberty caclulations are;

1000kg of algae x 80% oil/algae x 100% extraction of that oil = 800kg of algae oil.

Ofc we all know that 100% recovery is not likely so a better number would be 90% recovery (extraction). I would expand the above calculation to;

1000kg of algae x 80% oil/algae x  90% extraction of that oil = 720kg of algae oil.

nesna:

 Lets assume that the algae we're using has 35% lipids. What could be the amount of oil per tonne(1000kg) that could be got from such a strain of algae.

1000kg of algae x 35% oil/algae x 90% extraction of that oil = 315kg of algae oil.

froggy:

My friend liberty based his guesstimation on the concept that the correct algae to make algoil is somewhere in the 20% to 80% range. I would narrow that range to more like 10% to 60%. 

 Why do you think we could get only 10% to 60% when clearly there are algae with yields higher than that. Is it because you think obtaining a consistent output of more than 60% is a tall order. In any case what do you think is an optimum strain for the purpose of growing algal oil for biodiesel? 

Thank you.

nesna:

froggy:

My friend liberty based his guesstimation on the concept that the correct algae to make algoil is somewhere in the 20% to 80% range. I would narrow that range to more like 10% to 60%. 

 Why do you think we could get only 10% to 60% when clearly there are algae with yields higher than that. Is it because you think obtaining a consistent output of more than 60% is a tall order. In any case what do you think is an optimum strain for the purpose of growing algal oil for biodiesel? 

Thank you.

Hm... maybe Im not explaining myself well.

Soybeans, after harvesting and dried, have an oil content of ~ 20%. 20% of the contents of the bean is oil, 80% is other things like sugar and DNA and proteins and...

Algae are infact alive and need to keep being alive. So a certain % of the algae is also sugar and DNA and Proteins and... 

So the question comes up, how high can we concentrate the oil % of the algae after collection and drying? We call this bone dry oil content or for shorthand 60% algoil.

Some algae can concentrate 60%, some algae can only concentrate 10%. 

Why would you grow a 10% when you can find a 60% algae? Because the algae has to bioprocess the sunlight into oil and that takes time AND energy to the algae. So it might be that a 25% algoil is the most optimized economic model for one particular algae spp in one part of the world and 60% might be better somewhere else. Also... the other part of the algae that isnt algoil could have value as food or some other market. One might want 80% food and squeeze the 20% for a bit of fuel....

The other calculation is cant get it all the oil out or we can but its not economical to get every last drop. Thus we have an extraction (or recovery) number. 90% number that I used is just a number, the real # could vary greatly based on economic considerations.

So lets say we have a 60% oil content algae that yields 1000kg/day x 90% extraction = 1000 x .6 x .9 = 540kg of oil / 1000kg of algae.

Ya?

I like to add some reality checks here.  Unless there is a breakthrough I do not know about, you are not going to extract more than 3/4 - 4/5 of the lipds available from algae to make bd.

Chemical extraction mechanisms =might= be able to do better; but then you have to deal with a contaminant (the chemicals used in the extraction process) in addition to the more well known issues in making bd.

Also, the higher the % lipid content, the =slower= the algae in question tends to grow.  As froggy correctly notes, the "best" algae species to use for making algoil may very well be context depedent.  The goal is to get the most agoil bd per unit time at the lowest cost.  There are many variables that can be adjusted to affect that; and many of them are context dependent.

The best species to grow in a raceway pond in FL is unlikely to be the best species to grow in a PBR in AZ or in either a pond or a PBR in WI.

This is why we need more basic science done to more thoroughly document the growing characteristics of the various algaes in the same manner as we have for all other commercial crops.  We need to know as much about algae agriculture as we do about corn, soy, wheat, etc.

So,

1= the cost of making algoil bd is =highly variable=; being dependent on species used, environment grown in, method used to grow and harvest, etc.  The vast majority of these areas are still open areas of research.  Present costs will decrease as research gives way to known efficient methods.  As algoil costs continue to decrease and crude oil costs continue to rise, it is inevitable that at some point the curves will cross and algoil will be cost competitive with crude oil.  Where that breakpoint is remains to be seen.  IMHO, $2.50 - $5.00 US pg algoil bd is well within the realm of probable.

2= If the question is how much oil can be harvested from 1000 Kg of "dry" algae biomass, to really answer accurately, we'd need to know which alage is being used.  Species like BB with 80% oil content are the exceptions, not the average.  40% - 60% oil content is far more typical for species being considered for algoil production.

Of that 40% - 60%, we will be able to extract 3/4 - 4/5 under reasonable best case conditions.  So 500+-100Kg lipids yields 375 - 480 Kg algoil.

3= It is very likely not appropriate to completely dry the biomass before oil extraction.  Water removal past some point becomes exponentially more expensive.  Both in cost and energy use.

The most likely RW scenario is that 1000Kg of biomass will actually be some percent H2O.  That will lower the above yield calculations by exactly the amount of H2O involved.   

Voltaire:

    IMHO, $2.50 - $5.00 US pg algoil bd is well within the realm of probable.  

IMO, this is much too aggressive a number. $10-$20 is within the realm of probable.

This number is highly variable. It dependent on alot of things like; process, infrastructure, production/acre, cost of doing business like profit, financing and IP costs. All numbers are guesses.

we have posted production figures before here  but they get lost in all the postings,  we  conservatively estimate 12000 gallons of oil per year per acre 90% as biodiesel all costs of production are covered by a cascading stream of value added products which in effect are worth far more than the  algae based fuel, in effect, the fuel is a by product, this allows us to put algae based biofuels out at a price lower than conventional fuels in this way we feel that alternative fuels will become firmly ensconced in the fuel economy ,never to be  Underpriced by petroderived fuels, thus guaranteeing once in for all a permanent alternative fuel economy... soon we will find out if we are "on the money" or not with our projections.

marc

froggy:

Voltaire:

    IMHO, $2.50 - $5.00 US pg algoil bd is well within the realm of probable.  

IMO, this is much too aggressive a number. $10-$20 is within the realm of probable.

This number is highly variable. It dependent on alot of things like; process, infrastructure, production/acre, cost of doing business like profit, financing and IP costs. All numbers are guesses.

$10-$20 US pg in real dollars is not a price that will ever be commercially viable in the USA.   $20 US pg in real dollars would not be commercially viable in any country on earth.

Investors and governments are smart enough to know this and will therefore not fund any commercial algoil bd venture with such real dollar prices as goals.

So algoil bd is not leaving the lab and entering large scale commercial production unless or until commercually viable prices are attainable.

Like all developing fields, price will go through 3 broad phases:

1= Research.  Price is not an issue.  Capability is.

2= 1st Phase Development.  Cost parity with existing competitive products is the goal.  As of now, that means algoil bd at ~$125 + non material costs US pb= ~$4.25 US pg at the pump.  Note that as long as supply is less than demand, even if producers can achieve cost parity, they will tend to charge what the market will bear.  =Costs= may be comparable.  =Prices= are unlikely to be during this phase.

3= 2nd Phase development.  Increasing supply to meet all existing and short term projected demand is the goal.

4= Broad scale commercialization.  =Here= is where prices start decreasing down to whatever costs will allow.

If you look at the early history of petroleum, you can see exactly this pattern.  The gotcha for algoil bd development is that we have to go through these phases much more quickly than petroleum did.

Commercial producers of algoil bd will make as much as they can as cheaply as they can and sell it for as much as they can.  For the near future, that means within the USA no more than ~$4.50 - $5.50 US in real dollars or they simply will not be able to sell it.  European nations will be willing to pay more, but no matter what market we consider, price parity with diesel is an absolute requirement for commerical viability.

If, as looks increasingly likely, crude oil hits ~$200 US pb by EOY 2010, then the ultimate near term goal of the algoil bd field is ~$100 US pb within the US.  Without the nuclear and water resources of the USA, most other countries on earth will not be able to match this pricing for algoil bd. 

In particular, China has a trifecta of issues that both a= make it likely to be world's largest consumer of crude by increasingly greater margins for the foreseeable future, and b= make it unlikely for them to have the energy or water resources to take advantage of algoil bd to the extent the USA could.

Voltaire:

 European nations will be willing to pay more,

Europeans nations dont pay more for oil, they just tax it differently than USA does on the consumer side. European nations, as well as others, arnt willing to pay any more for energy than market pricing. It would be wrong to confuse the issue.

Hello everyone, 

Sorry about the following detour on the thread topic..

If I am to grow algae, I know for a fact that they need nutrients dissolved in the water in the form of phosphates and nitrates and few others. I was just wondering if I could use standard agricultural manure or fertilizer to dissolve into the water on which the algae is grown? Is is possible to use sewage as a source for the afore mentioned nutrients in place of manure. Or is it possible to use organic waste created at home as nutrient source for the algae? If organic waste created at home can be used as a nutrient source, is there any preprocessing that needs to done to the organic waste before I mix it with the water for the algae to feast on. 

 One other thing. Could I use tap water for the algae? If not what kind of water could I use for growing the algae? Pardon me for the barrage of questions. Im trying to grow algae and haven't done this sort of thing before. Before I could go any furthur, these were the questions that I had to find answers for.

Thank you. 

 Nensa,

Cracking is what is done to petro.  That needed for BB is thought to be similiar, but simpler. 

It is a matter of definition - if an algae is 20% oil, that means that 1000 kg will have 200 kg of oil.  And yes, there are species with 80%. Froggy is correct, the real world extraction will be less than perfect.  We may not want to push it, because the algae cake may sell for more than the oil.  If so, we will want to make it to the needs of the people paying the big bucks.  Voltaire is correct, we will not dry the algae before extracting oil.

The problem that has kept this from being on the market at your corner store, is that no one has 1000 kg of algae - they have 100 g of algae.  We need to learn how to grow algae and start building farms. 

 Froggy,

Good point - but we pay too much in taxes, so our production costs for algae oil would have to be less than $4.00 currently. My estimate is $3.00 for us and probably about the same for the Europeans.  

 Nensa,

If you use tap water, you will need to de-chlorinate it.  Or use rain water, like Slippery.  Or use distilled water. Or better yet - DI water.

I hope that we will be able to use animal wastes for feeding algae. That could be organic or not.   But we need to learn a lot before we get there.  To reduce the number of variables, you probably want to start your experiments with chemicals to produce algae "food".

A recent (last week) article on aol.com listed Sierre Leone gas price at $18.50 per gal. People are willing to pay that much when they need it badly. It's never a matter of price, it's always a matter of need and ability to pay that price. When a person wants something bad enough they will pay any price to get it.