BioDieselNow - Renewable biodiesel fuel

[quote]Originally posted by girl Mark
By the way, these same exact parts (even the brand of cheapo $25 pump) are on both systems... the wash tank stuff I don't know what brand you used, of course. Washing with the metal nozzles that utahbiodieselsupply.com sells (3-emitter nozzle, the Fogg-It, and the new Wash Pro/Mist Pro) eliminates any problem with misting nozzle pressure. I think the early Fuelmeister had the same problems with the Arizona Misters, I wouldn't use those because a few people and the early Fuelmeister folks had problems with the plastic tubing that connects them, but Graydon still sells them alongside the more robust and newer metal misting equipment. Leaks are just a matter of how the person assembling the kit did the assembling. Use more tape than you would if you were plumbing normal water supply. Mark Funny you should say that.... With so many like parts...its funny how you bash the system so much... and on my second note...my plumber was here the day I was putting together the appleseed and he offered to put it together for me. (been a plumber since 77') He even replaced a fitting that leaked immediatly. The appleseed now sits (early retirement after @450 gallons)in a corner with puddle of oil around it. With 3 leaky fittings and hoses that are NOT meant to be used to make Biodiesel I am sure! On edit....btw I am not a FM owner...but I did happen upon a "seminar" of theirs.

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With so many like parts...its funny how you bash the system so much...

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So have you noticed what the shortcomings are yet? Like <no heat=bad reaction> and <heat=plastic reactor=bad> ? Hmmmm. The revolution will not be televised. '83 240D

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Originally posted by biofreak The appleseed now sits (early retirement after @450 gallons)in a corner with puddle of oil around it. With 3 leaky fittings and hoses that are NOT meant to be used to make Biodiesel I am sure!

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Say, biofreak, where ye be? If you're close to Upstate SC, I'd be more than happy to take that "early retirement" appleseed processor off your hands. Give you more space to build a proper reactor, hmmm? --------------------------- "Diesel Pirate of Pendleton!" '86.5 Quantum Syncro, presently gas @ 26-28 mpg 2.0L Audi I5 diesel to be transplanted... 30+mpg? Who knows!

Thanks for your help!

girl mark: what part of the country are you in? on the illinois/wisoncsin border, rockford, illinois. i was trying to find other people near me, in the illinois forum, but nothing came up, oh well.

I think there's a Chicago biodiesel forum- http://chicagobiodiesel.org/forum/index.php it's not very active yet but I"m sure that's just a matter of time. Also, there's a Wisconsin biodiesel email list or two, which includes some IL people. Go post at the Wisconsin forum here to find the address to subscribe. Biodiesel Homebrew Guide: Everything You Need To Know To Make Quality Alternative Diesel Fuel From Restaurant Fryer Oil www.localb100.com/book.html ********

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Originally posted by old300D

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With so many like parts...its funny how you bash the system so much...

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So have you noticed what the shortcomings are yet? Like <no heat=bad reaction> and <heat=plastic reactor=bad> ? Hmmmm. The revolution will not be televised. '83 240D

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Of course...they both have flaws....Maybe start a NEW TOPIC titled 'Appleseed- your opinions' instead of just comparing them. Or better yet...offer some constructive ideas to make each better. Its Biodiesel for goodness sakes...

I know this thread has died down but I thought I should mention a fun fact I discovered. It's my understanding that a dealer in the New England area will set you up with a Methanol source if you buy a fuelmeister kit from them. However you will not be allowed to purchase Methanol from this source unless you buy a fuelmeister kit from the dealer. This information has helped me in making a decision on what type processor I will use. ANYTHING THAT ISN'T MADE BY FUELMEISTER. Whatever happened to sharing resources for making Biodiesel? I'm having such a hard time locating a Methanol source that I'm about to give up and order #2 fuel oil. But if I drop $3000+shipping I'll be let into the secret methanol club. Pardon my language "But the hell with that." Unless a methanol source pops up in the next week my house will be heated with dino-fuel. I can't wait 3 years to recoup my costs.

Well, tonight I had a chance to lay eyes on a Fuelmeister II. I was able to see/feel/touch/look at/poke around/and generally gawk at one "in service".

What I saw was "interesting".

The guy had just bought it (of course, before doing any real research into Biodiesel Processors) and had made two batches with it by the time I saw it. One batch was a complete failure and the other one still looked "murky"

Here's a link to a video of the new FM II that Rick dug up:
http://www.biodieselsolutions.com/video/introducing_the_fuelmeisterII.asp

The video does a good job of making it look good...I'll just leave it at that on the video. Anyway, here were some of my thoughts as I looked it over.

First of all, it still uses the cheap Harbor Freight pump. Next, I noticed that the fittings on it (the "New & Improved" fittings that have alway's been a part of Appleseeds from Day 1) were all JB Welded. Especially the one's going into the pump. I then noticed that the bolts that hold the pump to the frame were too long. In otherwords, they were sticking out way past the frame they were mounted to. Hmmm...guess they couldn't spring for the right length of bolts huh... The pump itself is a revised version of the HF pump in that they've pulled off the black electrical housing and installed a gray box w/ a 3 way switch on it. Down=off Middle=on Up=60 minute timer Rick was speculating that the timer is something similar to what's on A/C units. CHEAP!

 
I then took a look down below on the tank. One of the things the old tanks alway's got slammed on was that they used a bulk-head fitting. Metal on plastic at a bulk head fitting do not make for a good seal (metal changes in sized differently than plastic with changes in temperature) The fuel is still heated via an overpriced 55 gallon barrel heater. The guy had wrapped foil around the fuelmiester. Not sure if it came with it, but it sure wasn't sticking to the tank that well (can you say Duct tape?)

It now comes with three lids.
1- A "Processing" lid
2- A "Washing" lid
3- A "Drying" lid

Processing Lid
The processing lid has this big peice of PVC pipe w/ a cap on either end hooked to the lid. There's three holes in it.
The top hole is mounted to the lid & it's where you pour catalyst into it. Inside the "chamber" are what can only be described as "coosh ball" looking red things. I suppose it's to improve mixing. Anyway, you pour the NaOH down into this hole & put the cap on (which is just a PVC cap). Then you hook up your methanol supply to it & pump in 8 gallons of methanol (for a 40 gallon batch). I'm not sure how it "injects" the methoxide into the tank, I didn't look at it close enough. Washing Lid Imagine the biggest toilet bowl float you've ever seen in your life mounted to a poly tank lid.

Next, the input on the lid is hooked up to "recommended warm, soft water". As the water hits the "float", the "float" output is hooked up to semi-clear PVC tubing that spirals the lid and is held in place by metal brackets. If you look closely at the tubing, it has a bunch of pin-holes in it. So, to wash, you put the lid on, kick the water on & let it go. It "sprays" water through the tubing. When the float get's full it shuts off the water. That float was so dang funny looking. It looked like a toilet bowl float on steriods.

Drying Lid
This was "interesting".... You hook up the tubing from the pump output to a fitting on the top of this lid & kick the pump on. The "washed" biodiesel goes through a filter housing, into a water separating filter and spray's back into the biodiesel via a 4 GPM Fogg-It Nozzle. (By the way, Fogg-It Nozzles aren't the best to be spraying Biodiesel with. They're made of Zinc-alloy and over time they'll corrode. I've had one sitting in a jar of Biodiesel now for about 6 months just to see what it'd do....it doesn't look pretty. Also, the washer in the Fogg-It's are NOT Biodiesel Compatible. The Washer on the one I've got in my jar has blown up to about 3 times it's original size and when bumped with anything it falls apart.) Anyway, the idea is that you put the lid back on the tank, attach the pump to it and kick on the pump to "circulate" the biodiesel through it. You still "heat" the oil via a barrel heater that you connect to a metal drum. OK, now here's some of the potential problems I see with the unit.

#1 - Lack of heat.
Remember, it get's COOOLLLLDDDD in Utah during the winter... Well converted Biodiesel is directly proportional to the amount of heat used. Studies have shown that temperature's of at least 120 deg F are necessary to get a good conversion. Up the heat a little more (typically 130-140 in commercial settings) and your chances of getting better conversion are also increased (Appleseeds process at about 130-135 deg. F, BioPro's run 135-140 deg F). The FuelMeister I saw was in a shed & it's obvious the tanks aren't holding the heat really well, hence the bubble-wrapped blanket (which by the way was really thin). Anyway, I suspect that once you get your oil to temp & put it into the tank, your oil temperature begins dropping quickly. Too quickly in my opinion, but a good GC test will tell more....I'm going to sample some of his fuel & send it off for GC testing.

#2- Priming The Pump
The original FM actually had a much better method for priming the pump. This one was a joke. Basically, the "input" wand that you dip in your barrel of oil has a T-fitting on the top of it. You're supposed to pull the cap off of one of the T-Fittings and hook a bulb & squeeze it to get oil into the wand. He said it really doesn't work well at all. The wand has a foot valve on the bottom of it.

#3 Cheap Pump
I think the pump may be even cheaper than the one from Harbor Freight. His pump had already started spraying oil onto his tank from the bearing housing. Not veggie oil, but bearing oil.

#4 JB Welded Fittings
The bottom of the bulk-head still has a piece of pipe stuck up in it w/ some JB Weld surrounding it & a big "radiator clamp" holding everything together. I dunno. It just didn't impress me. Didn't look like "quality craftmanship" to me...looked like "CHEAP!"

#5 Drying Lid
The purpose of Drying is to get water OUT of the biodiesel, not seal it in. The lid is SEALED when it's on. The only way water can escape a sealed vessel is if there's an opening. It just didn't seem to me like the water was all going to get sucked up by the filter. Who know's, maybe it's a way to sell filters. I just wasn't impressed. Also, when it's "drying" the biodiesel, there's no heat applied. So, unless it's warm out, you're going to be circulating "cold" or at best "ambient temperature" biodiesel through a sealed vessel. I also thought that using a Fogg-It nozzle was pretty cheesy. Like I said before, they're just not compatible with Biodiesel (they're made from Zinc-Alloy--spraying water with? Yes! Spraying Biodiesel with? Not really.) and the rubber seal inside swells when Biodiesel hits it. I didn't screw off the one on his unit to see if they'd replaced the seal, but if I were a betting man I'd say it still has the original one that comes with them in it (remember, I sell these puppies, but I sell them as a WASHING implement, not a drying one). To me it didn't really look like an "improvement" per se. It looked more like a "cost cutting exercise".

They've killed the Methoxide tank. Used a cheaper looking fitting on the bulk-head, gone with super cheap fittings, moved to using JB Weld to seal them all (guess what happens when you need to replace one? Ya get to break them apart--not really user friendly huh). He said draining glycerin was a pain. Because the fittings are set up in a way that you have to drain until you see biodiesel coming out of the fittings, you can dump a bunch of extra bio w/o knowing it. Now, Appleseeds & even BioPro's have this same issue, so I'll cut em some slack on that one. He installed a small little T- just after the bulk-head fitting and then he "bleeds off" the glycerin until he is able to see biodiesel & then can stop. Overall, I was incredibly underimpressed by the "quality" of the materials. It looked like they went for even cheaper materials this time around. Some of the Appleseeds I've made look really good in comparision to this thing.

Anyway, I'll freely admit that I'm somewhat biased in my view's of Fuelmeisters. I've not "owned one" or "made Biodiesel in one" (not too sure I'd want to unless I could modify the hell out of one). But after seeing one in person, seeing the bio in it & what it looked like, I was extremely unimpressed. Especially when you consider that they run $4K. I'd imagine FM are into them MAYBE $1200 max...and that's pushing it.

The methanol pump on them does seem to be an improvement over the crappy yellow one that everyone has said such bad things about. The wand is definately a step backwards though & they really oughta spring for a chemical grade, self-priming pump if they're gonna be charging that much for a machine....of course I guess that'd cut into Rudy's profits too much though, huh.... If any of you have the chance, it's well worth a trip to a dealer to check one out so you get a good feel for what they are. I would dare say that when you compare a FuelMeister to say a well-built Appleseed, the difference is readily apparent.

FuelMeister seems to be out there for one thing and one thing only....to make Biodiesel Solutions LOTS of money from people that don't do their research. If you're going to blow $4K on a processor, I really think there are better options. Even some of the FuelMeister Knock-off's are much better than what I saw tonight (and cheaper too!) After looking at the Fuelmeister tonight, here's what I thought Rudy's slogan must be... "To Make As Much Money As Possible Per Machine By Using Sup-Par Parts And Grossly Overcharging For Them And Selling Them To Unsuspecting Newbies Who Don't Take The Time To Do Their Research" The Barrel heater's they sell for $399 are easily had from B100 Supply for half that. The big poly tank can be had from US Plastics for a fraction of the price. The "lids" can be made by anyone with mechanical aptitude and some spare time (and I think they can be improved on drastically).

Like I said, I'm going to take some of his fuel, pull some samples & get it tested & we'll see how it comes out. I'm predicting that we'll probably see somewhat unreacted fuel. I just see the lack of heat being a big issue on these things. The guy also said that it definately "wasn't quick" to operate & that it was incredibly time consuming. So, then I drove home thinking about my visit the whole way, walked out to my shed, took 20 minutes to fill my BioPro with chemicals, methanol, & sulfuric acid, hit the big green button & walked inside. Nothin' like makin' biodiesel in a BioPro. It's so much fun and truly "Time saving" in nature....yeah, I'm biased, I love my BioPro! Sure, the BioPro's are really spendy, but when you put one next to a FuelMeister, the difference is incredibly drastic. It's like sticking a Mercedes next to a Yugo. The difference is THAT drastic! The BioPro's LOOK like an industrial peice of equipment (and operate like one too). The FuelMeister's look like something my neighbor threw together after he raided Home Depot. Now, granted, Appleseeds probably don't look as nice & "industrial" as BioPro's either, but you also don't have to pay through the nose for them either like you do for FuelMeisters. For under $1,000 you can have one heck of a Biodiesel Processor up & running that, in my opinion (based on seeing GC results from several Appleseed batches), can make just as good if not BETTER biodiesel than any FuelMeister out there. Heck, my demo guy's hit ASTM with his Appleseed multiple times now. Several other's here have too. I've yet to see ANYONE with a FuelMeister dare post their GC Results. Hmmmm.....wonder why... ...could it be because the fuel they make are grossly underconverted? Nah.....couldn't be that.... Anyway, I'm not doggin' the fuelmeister all the way. They DO make Biodiesel. But for the money, I'd go with an Appleseed or up it a bit & get a REAL Commercial Grade Biodiesel Processor that looks, acts, & produces really good Biodiesel. Anyway, I'm sure this thing'll draw flames, & if it does, oh well. That's what is great about this forum. It's kind of "open season" & no holds barred. We all get to speak our minds here. So, shoot away...I'm ready (and I've got GC results to back me up). -Graydon Thinking there's better way's to spend $4,000 to make Biodiesel.

Utah Biodiesel Supply Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature, Biodiesel Soap, Bumper Stickers, Emblems, Decals, Information, Pictures & More
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
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http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog

The Collaborative Biodiesel Tutorial
A Web Based Tutorial To Help You Learn How To Make Biodiesel
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org

The thing that gets me the most is...How can he sell so many? I have to give him credit for the fact that he sells sooooo many. I am the type of person who looks and looks and looks until the point where I almost cant stand it, and I bought a Fuelmeister! Maybe it was the tv show, the nice website, or the dealer I talked to and continuously helped me out. The fuelmeister looks nice but until I actually used it or attempted too, I was grossly un-impressed. At $3,000 I expected much much more. I had a leaky valve which was not easy to fix, the kit is not made to be worked on. I have never been able to prime it, and yes the cheesy plastic pump's handle broke right off, "Yea those have been a problem in the past, we sell a new, different kind now.....Its been more than 30 days sorry". There are a few other small things that are wrong with the Fuelmeister that just make producing biodiesel an inconvinience. I suppose if the Fuelmeister would cost less then maybe there wouldnt be so much to complain about, but in reality they cheaped out where ever possible. Heck the Fuelmeister II eliminated the second tank, and it sounds like a lot of fooling around with 3 different lids. That being said if your still in the market for this type of reactor I make and sell a 40 gallon processor for less than half the price, $1400. I believe I have made a better machine without the inflated price. If anyone is interested I can send you information and detailed pictures, email brent_seay@yahoo.com. 05' f-350 Ext Cab 4" lift 35" Mickey Thompsons

BRENTSBG, Any pics of them? -Graydon [img]http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/infopop/gotbiodiesel2.jpg[/img] Utah Biodiesel Supply Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature, Biodiesel Soap, Bumper Stickers, Emblems, Decals, Information, Pictures & More http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply The Rabid Biodiesel Nut http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog The Collaborative Biodiesel Tutorial A Web Based Tutorial To Help You Learn How To Make Biodiesel http://www.biodieselcommunity.org

yes, but I havent figured out how to post them. 05' f-350 Ext Cab 4" lift 35" Mickey Thompsons

You can create an account on biodieselpictures.com and then upload them there & then link back to them here if you'd like (it's free!). Or, email them to me & I'll host them for you too. I've got gobs of web-space I can stick them on. -Graydon graydonblair[at]yahoo[dot]com [img]http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/infopop/gotbiodiesel2.jpg[/img] Utah Biodiesel Supply Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature, Biodiesel Soap, Bumper Stickers, Emblems, Decals, Information, Pictures & More http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply The Rabid Biodiesel Nut http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog The Collaborative Biodiesel Tutorial A Web Based Tutorial To Help You Learn How To Make Biodiesel http://www.biodieselcommunity.org

Hey Graydon, you forgot to tell them about the mouse in the shed!! And I had duct tape on the bubble wrap! Well, this is what I did since you came over, washed washed washed washed washed washed and today I'm still washing, it has taken me 4 days to make 80 gallons of biodiesel, actually with the Fuelmeister I would'nt even call it biodiesel. Today I was looking at 30 gallons that I'm giving to Kevin, (duramax's are always good test subjects)and I thought that I should dry it more just cause I had a feeling, this time I was going to put it into an open lid container and place that $1500 band heater around it and let it cook all day. Well I got out my transfer pump that came with the kit (northern tool model #36055) it also came with a water seperator filter, I got everything hooked up and fliped the switch, and guess what, I didn't even get 1 gallon out and the filter was pluged, so I changed the filter cause they are gracious to give you 2 with the kit, and I fliped the switch, same thing, pluged filter, the third time I got out my trusty hose and did it the old fashion way, as it got down to about 2 gallons I noticed that the bottom was nothing but thick grease, and I thought this was a good batch!. I don't know what went wrong, I did everything per fuelmeisters instructions. They say that you can do 80 gallons in a day, I say B.S. Graydon, I'll give this system to you if you want to play with it but I would ask that you sell me a 250 gallon BioPro at cost when it comes out. If anyone is in the market and is looking at FuelMeister, don't waste your money, I did it for you, they suck. Gary Utah

BRENTSBG, I got a 01' F350 crewcab, 6.5" lift with 37" toyo muds 700 hp with 3 chips stacked on top of one another 850-900 hp with nos It screams

Graydon, here is a link to the pictures. http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?p=351#351 I was hoping I could get the pictures to come up without having to link them, but this should do. 05' f-350 Ext Cab 4" lift 35" Mickey Thompsons

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Originally posted by BRENTSBG
Graydon, here is a link to the pictures. http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?p=351#351 I was hoping I could get the pictures to come up without having to link them, but this should do.

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To post pictures you need to use the reply with quote button on any message and then on the buttons at the top there is a button to the right of the email symbol that allows you to insert a picture from a file. I have copied your pictures to my web site and inserted them here for you. Jim [img]http://customcutlery.com/bio_processor.jpg[/img] [img]http://customcutlery.com/bio_processor2.jpg[/img] 2006 Jetta TDI 1985 300D Mercedes 1982 300SD Mercedes 2 years + biodieseler

that was very nice of you! thanks have a nice day 05' f-350 Ext Cab 4" lift 35" Mickey Thompsons

Gary, Looks like I missed your post (I went to Iowa for a week and am slowly getting caught back up). Man, that's too bad it still hasn't made good Bio yet. Kevin mentioned he'd talked to you about it again too. I loved the line though, "Yep. They suck!". That'd make a cool bumper sticker.... Fuelmiesters.... Yep, They SUCK! Fuelmeister, Makes crappy Biodiesel every time! ok....my bad...sorry...couldn't help it..the fingers got carried away. You know, with a few modifications to the thing, it really could be a decent machine, it's just that they went out of their way to make everything so dog gone cheap on it that it just doesn't do the job well. -Graydon [img]http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/infopop/gotbiodiesel2.jpg[/img] Utah Biodiesel Supply Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature, Biodiesel Soap, Bumper Stickers, Emblems, Decals, Information, Pictures & More http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply The Rabid Biodiesel Nut http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog The Collaborative Biodiesel Tutorial A Web Based Tutorial To Help You Learn How To Make Biodiesel http://www.biodieselcommunity.org

Graydon, in your last comment you said "You know, with a few modifications to the thing, it really could be a decent machine, it's just that they went out of their way to make everything so dog gone cheap on it that it just doesn't do the job well." Are you refering to the fm2 or the original? I have not seen the second fm but it seems a bit "ho-key". If you were refering to the original, like the one I build, are there any suggestions you would care to share? 05' f-350 Ext Cab 4" lift 35" Mickey Thompsons