Well, since it's become a Biodiesel Processor love fest around here...I figured I'd pitch in. If you're interested in a BioPro 190, I've got lot's & lot's of information, pictures, details, test results (I had some fuel GC Tested on a BioPro 190), video's, and more here: http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/biopro190.php To see all the "additional information", click on the links at the top of the page. I also just added an informational brochure. It's kind of targeted at restaraunts, but you'll get the picture. http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/biopro/BioPro190Brochure-2006-10-29.pdf I've now made several batches with mine and am still loving it! -Graydon

what/how does the bio-pro do its "thing", what runs it?

Ahhh....great question. I've got a detailed answer for you here: http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/biopro190howitworks.php Check it out.... The quick answer is that it does an Acid/Base reaction. -Graydon

that is a pretty informative description. I am not to familiar with the acid/base reaction. But without having to test the oil, the biopro 190 must be able to bring the oil to a common level each an everytime, Is that what the acid/base process does?  I am thinking that the machine is really not as complicated as I had thought, just uses really good parts. Everytime I read about it I get more intrigued, once the hook is set I cant turn back!

The acid / base process esterfies the FFA's using high purity sulfuric acid and a portion of the methanol used in the full process.  Once the acid has done it's work then the titration is always your base amount of catalyst plus the amount of acid added to do the acid step.  Example ... if you add 2 ml of acid per L and your base amount of catalyst is 3.5 then you use 5.5 grams of catalyst.

 When I make a run using the acid base process I make 40 gallons at a time so the formula for that is as follows:

 40 gallons of oil (151 L )

 Total methanol at 20% is 8 gallons of methanol.

My first stage I add aprox 40% (3.2 gallons) of the total methanol to the oil while pump mixing add 2 ml of sulfuric acid per L so for simplicity save sake 300 ml.  for nasty oil that titrates very high you may need to increase the acid amount but for normal stuff (titration of 4 to 8) this amount works fine.  mix this part of the brew for about 2 hours while at temp. JTF says that 90 degs F is fine but I run at 135 deg F.  Allow to settle ... the acid stage can generate some water so you want to drain off part of the bottom of any water that was formed in the acid stage.

 Next I mix my catalyst 831 grams (3.5 g base + 2 g per L for the acid offset)  in the remaining 4.8 gallons of methanol and then add it to the heated (135 F) first stage mix in the usual single stage way and mix for another hour.  Then wait for the fuel fairy to bring the bio D to your processor overnight.

 I have used this process to convert oils that titrated as high as 14 grams per L which is way nasty.

 Jim

Yep. That's EXACTLY what it does...

 It uses the Sulfuric Acid to bring the "titration" (which is just a measure of free-fatty acid content) into a "known" area and then it goes forward with the base method (transesterification).

 
It works pretty well. Their machine will handle oil that'll titrate up to about an 18 using KOH to titrate with quite comfortably. I know, I've tried it and the bio came out great.

 
Granted, if you use REALLY HIGH Titrating oil, you WILL lose some of your yield though. Even with their method, it can't fully convert all of the FFA's to Biodiesel so some of them still end up in soap.

This is because with really high FFA content oil, you end up making so much water that you begin to kill the reaction and the machine doesn't have a way to get rid of the water well (YET anyway).

 
Still though, it beats the crap out of working with a manual system. I've used an Appleseed for years and I'm totally hooked on my BioPro. Push Button Biodiesel, that's what I call it.  It comes out really clean too.

 -Graydon


 

graydonblair:

It uses the Sulfuric Acid to bring the "titration" (which is just a measure of free-fatty acid content) into a "known" area and then it goes forward with the base method (transesterification).

 

What makes this reaction sequence different than the Foolproof method (JtF), aside from using a reasonable amount of base catalyst? How many titrations are performed? What's all the hubbub about the FATTA method being so much better if this modified Foolproof method works without problem (and without all the titration)?

ebztz:

graydonblair:

It uses the Sulfuric Acid to bring the "titration" (which is just a measure of free-fatty acid content) into a "known" area and then it goes forward with the base method (transesterification).

 

What makes this reaction sequence different than the Foolproof method (JtF), aside from using a reasonable amount of base catalyst? How many titrations are performed? What's all the hubbub about the FATTA method being so much better if this modified Foolproof method works without problem (and without all the titration)?

JTF is where I learned my basics of bio D.  That was before I found many more (much better) resources like this group.  I just took the fool proof method and adjusted it so it actually worked.  I only use it when I get titrations above 4+ gram NaOH, anything 4 or under I use base only.  At a titration of 4+ the base only formula is so ineffective and reduces the yield so much - it makes the two stage process worth the extra trouble.

Jim

Jim, care to expound on the details of your modified Foolproof process?

ebztz:

Jim, care to expound on the details of your modified Foolproof process?

It is listed in the earlier part of this thread.  No major modifications just a little tweaking.  More sulfuric acid than what is called for in the fool proof method and I use higher temp [same as base side] for the 1st stage.  I don't do the 15 minute glycerin dumps when doing stage 2 .... I think it removes too much of the methanol and cuts the process short of completion.  Stage 2 is just like a normal base reaction.   I believe the fool proof method also called for only using new oil rate [3.5 grams] for catalyst and I add to that to offset the sulfuric amount added.

Jim

Do you have any numerical data on your product?

ebztz:

Any numerical data on your product?

I guess I am at a loss for what exactly you are asking .... in the message above #118801 I laid out my information using an exact formula of how I do it in a 40 gallon batch. if there is something I missed or if you have a specific question I would love to try to answer it but I am honestly not sure what I have omitted in my previous post.

I am a small homebrewer and don't have my fuel analyzed commercially so aside from the basic tests and the fact that I am running our fuel in 6 vehicles without any problems, I don't have much else for data.

I use the 2 stage process as little as possible .... I only resort to it on oils that titrate above 4.  Most of the oil I get comes in at 1 to 1.5 but I have used this method to convert as high as a titration of 14 grams NaOH. 

Jim

customcutlery:

I am a small homebrewer and don't have my fuel analyzed commercially so aside from the basic tests and the fact that I am running our fuel in 6 vehicles without any problems, I don't have much else for data.

When I asked about product, I was referring to the Biodiesel you produced. The above is what I wanted to know. I read Graydon's post on Infopop regarding the BioPro 190's failure to consistently produce ASTM spec fuel (though judging from the GC results, the product looks acceptable). I was wondering if you had managed to meet ASTM spec.

I suggest getting a simple test, namely Gas Chromatography, done. This test will give you a good idea of how good your conversion is, and poor conversion, IMO, is the single greatest problem with Biodiesel. Paying for this test is notably cheaper than failing the "running it in vehicles" test. I believe the costs is less than $100, with prices varying from lab to lab.

well, to get back to the subject...the biopro 190. what are the internals that actually make it work. Is there a PLC running it or mechanical timers or what....

ebztz:

customcutlery:

I am a small homebrewer and don't have my fuel analyzed commercially so aside from the basic tests and the fact that I am running our fuel in 6 vehicles without any problems, I don't have much else for data.

When I asked about product, I was referring to the Biodiesel you produced. The above is what I wanted to know. I read Graydon's post on Infopop regarding the BioPro 190's failure to consistently produce ASTM spec fuel (though judging from the GC results, the product looks acceptable). I was wondering if you had managed to meet ASTM spec.

I suggest getting a simple test, namely Gas Chromatography, done. This test will give you a good idea of how good your conversion is, and poor conversion, IMO, is the single greatest problem with Biodiesel. Paying for this test is notably cheaper than failing the "running it in vehicles" test. I believe the costs is less than $100, with prices varying from lab to lab.

I need to start reading these posts twice or stop responding to them when I am tired.  This time of year it gets crazy and my average work day is about 15 to 18 hours 7 days a week.

Anyway,  I would consider getting some testing if I ever get to a point of selling off excess but as it is now with 3 - F250 trucks plus the 3 car in my sig file we use all we can make and have for about 2 1/2 years now with out a single fuel related problem.  Several "old vehicle" related problems but none that could even be close to blaming the fuel. To me that is test enough.

 The fuel that I have made from the 2 stage process is almost as clear as fuel from virgin oil and passes all the basic "at home" tests with flying colors. The reason given for failure of the ASTM standard on higher FFA oil was "water".  The bio pro system can't remove the water created in stage 1 before proceeding to stage 2, where as I do ... It is just that simple.

Fortunately I have not had to do any 2 stage processing for about a year.  The place that I was getting the nasty oil from closed and I can see why ... I wouldn't want to eat food cooked in oil that titrated 14 grams NaOH.

Jim

ebztz,

As was indicated, one of the reasons high FFA oil in a BioPro doesn't hit the .24% spec for GC is the water creation issue.  That said, .31% is pretty darn good. I hereby challenge any other Biodiesel Processor Vendor on the market to publish their GC data for their machines.

 Most won't. Mainly because their data would come back so poor that it's embarrassing (I saw one for Fuelmiester once that was run. It was terrible)

 
However, it is possible to hit ASTM for total glycerin in an Appleseed processor.
I have a client that I built an Appleseed for who has done it repeatedly.

The BioPro, when used in Manual Mode, could probably do it to if you did a true two-stage Base Processing in it (ie. 80% catalyst/methanol in one shot, drain glycerin, 20 % catalyst methanol in second shot & drain off glycerin).

I haven't had a chance to try that way yet though.

The BioPro does a pretty good job though for hands-off production and ease of use. If one is willing to make biodiesel in it using the manual mode I'm pretty sure you could lower the total GC in it pretty well.

As for the guts in the thing, it runs off of a PLC. Lot's of pumps, a PLC, one BIG stirring motor, and relay's & stuff. It's pretty darn cool though (expensive, but very cool!)

The next closest thing to it that even comes close is the processors made by Biodiesel Logic (http://www.biodiesellogic.com) I've been really impressed with their equipment. All stainless steel stuff. Good stuff! 

 -Graydon
 

I'd love to own a BioPro .... if it were capable of larger batch sizes; as it stands, running two of these units 24/7 wouldn't supply us with the fuel we use. I personally think its the best premade unit on the market (as long as ASTM isn't necessary) and have recommended it to others as such. When the price comes down or the batch size goes up, I'd probably buy one. Personally, I'd just love to own the electronic guts, so that I could attach them to my processor.

First how do you know how much acid to add?

Second is muriatic acid pure enough?

Third are you using NAOH or KOH for you base?

The machine was designed with certain tolerances.

 For example, it will handle oil that titrates up to about an 18 using the KOH method for titrating
(You can see that here: http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/titration.php)

You add 190 mL of sulphuric acid of 93% purity or greater with every batch.

 
You can use either NaOH or KOH for the base.

I use KOH. For KOH it takes 2350 grams. For NaOH it takes 1530 grams.

-Graydon
 

You're not alone in that wish.

The company is actually working on something larger to deal with that very issue. It'll be a while as it's in development but when it becomes available I'll be sharing the nitty, gritty details here.

They've had a lot of requests for "The top electricals" but due to patent issues they've held off offering it yet. I gotta tell ya though, one look under "the hood" and I'm one impressed guy! The thing is amazingly simple and complex at the same time. It's cool to watch the PLC run.

Think PLC, really cool chemical grade pumps, a MASSIVE motor for stirring, lot's of relay's & wires & you've got "the guts" of the thing.

They did a lot of redundancies & safety things to the machine too that make it really safe to operate (for instance, there isn't a heating element that touches the oil directly). It has an exhaust fan to evacuate any methanol fumes, and lot's of other really smart design features.

I absolutely love mine, however, that said, I'm biased, but I still love it.

-Graydon