Ethanol instead of methanol

I'm looking for info on using ethanol instead of methanol.What do i have to do different,is it feasable I can get pure ethanol much easier than methanol and would be using another renewable fuel. Thanks

Hi sag0330, ethanol is as good as methanol as long as you have high grade ethanol (99.5%). It becomes more tricky to recover excess ethanol from your biodiesel. You would have to use a molecular mesh/screen (I do not know if this is the right word in English, sorry). If you have access to high grade ethanol at a good price or even better than methanol you might want to consider no recovery of the ethanol at all. In any case, ethanol is as good as methanol. From an environmental point of view even better. Michael

The only price I could find on denatured ethanol was $5.06/gallon delivered. If you find a better price, PLEASE let me know.

Hello db100-mike Can you be more specific about what you mean when you said: "ethanol is as good as methanol as long as you have high grade ethanol (99.5%)." That is certainly not my understanding. Most of the reports I have read says that you can not use ethanol with oil containing any amount of moisture or titrating higher than about 2 and even then it is a toss-up whether you will achieve seperation. BB

Hi Billy Bob, well, as I stated what you need is a high grade (nearly pure) ethanol and you will get the same kind of biodiesel. CHemically perhaps not correct, but what does methanol/ethanol in biodiesel? It provides mostly ignitability. Otherwise you could use SVO. The catalyst does the reaction and the methanol/ethanol the conversion. Water no matter where it is coming from will disturb the reaction. Therefore, you want to have a as much as you can water free ethanol. The problem with the ethanol is of course that it draws water easily. In my opinion it is a handling issue, but not a technical issue. We will use high grade ethanol from a nearby sugar plantation to produce 40,000 to of biodiesel from Jatropha curcas oil. It worked very nicely in the labs and the production units required only modification in recovering the ethanol. The price we have to pay for the ethanol is very attractive since we would have to import methanol. Michael

quote:

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Originally posted by bd100-mike
CHemically perhaps not correct, but what does methanol/ethanol in biodiesel? It provides mostly ignitability. Otherwise you could use SVO. The catalyst does the reaction and the methanol/ethanol the conversion.

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Left over methanol/ethanol must be removed from the processed biodiesel to comply with standards for the fuel. While some systems may tolerate it others, including VW's TDI systems, indicate that alcohols of any sort are damaging to the fuel system. So you should plan on recovering the excess alcohol in any process you are designing for compatibility and standards compliance.

Hello bd100-mike You seem to have some confused Idea about biodiesel. You do not get the same type of biodiesel whether you use ethanol or methanol. If you use ethanol you make ethylesters (if you are lucky) and if you use methanol you make methylesters. The ethanol and methanol are either "consumed" during the reaction or removed at the end of the reaction. There is no ethanol or methanol left in the biodiesel and they have NOTHING to do with ignitabliity of the fuel. Methanol and ethanol are poor fuels for use in compression ignition engines having much higher self-ignition temperatures than biodiesel and Veggie oil. The main reason people do not use SVO as a fuel is because it's viscosity is too high for modern fuel systems to handle well. When you say " In my opinion it is a handling issue, but not a technical issue" are you talking from actual experience? To be capable of making biodiesel from new oil using ethanol in a labratory does not automatically mean that it will be just as easy to make Biodiesel from used oil using ethanol in your back yard. The vast majority of people who have reported attempting to make biodiesel from WVO and ethanol have reported serious problems and frequent failure. If you have done any tests I would be interested to hear what you have done and your results BB

Hi Billy Bob here is my reply: "You seem to have some confused Idea about biodiesel." And I am glad you help to get rid off the confusion. Otherwise I will endanger a US$ 40 mio investment. "You do not get the same type of biodiesel whether you use ethanol or methanol. If you use ethanol you make ethylesters (if you are lucky) and if you use methanol you make methylesters." Chemically speaking you are right, but biodiesel is defined as a fuel with certain specs. You meet the specs and you have biodiesel regardless of the alcohol, the catalyst or the raw material. Or do you say biodiesel from rapeseed is not a biodiesel, but biodiesel from WVO? "The ethanol and methanol are either "consumed" during the reaction or removed at the end of the reaction. There is no ethanol or methanol left in the biodiesel and they have NOTHING to do with ignitabliity of the fuel." This is exactly what I meant: What you put in as methanol/ethanol replaces one of the triglycerides, which comes out as glycerine. So the "consumed" methanol/ethanol does something to the vegetable oil. What is it? It reduces the viscosity and the capability of the ignition of the fuel! Again, chemically you are right. Ethanol has a high ingnition point, what a about the flash point? Ready for a mental challenge? If you have a flash point for rapeseed oil of about 230°C and biodiesel has one of around 120°C, how can that happen without something added? In my confused opinion it must be the methanol or ethanol. The hazzle of "modifying" vegetable oil to get biodiesel is only justified to make it more suitable for the engine as mentioned above. Unfortunately, the "modification" causes the solvent character of biodiesel, which makes the car manufacturers so unhappy. What is the reason for that? The "alcohol" or something else? "Methanol and ethanol are poor fuels for use in compression ignition engines having much higher self-ignition temperatures than biodiesel and Veggie oil." Chemically speaking right. But why is the transport of methanol and ethanol considered dangerous? Perhaps the flash point? It seems to me that the people in Brazil do pretty good with ethanol as fuel. What is their secret? "The main reason people do not use SVO as a fuel is because it's viscosity is too high for modern fuel systems to handle well." Exactly, this why we convert SVO into biodiesel to make people's life easier. Actually, it is not the viscosity it is the cloud point. I know somebody, who runs a BMW 730d on pure SVO without any modification in tank or engine. No problems at all. When the cold season starts, he uses biodiesel. Companies like Elsbett convert trucks to a two tank system. Once the engine has reached the right temperature, the fuel supply switches to SVO. "When you say " In my opinion it is a handling issue, but not a technical issue" are you talking from actual experience?" Yes, because people are afraid of ethanol and some manufacturer of biodiesel equipment avoid the additional costs when ethanol is used. "To be capable of making biodiesel from new oil using ethanol in a labratory does not automatically mean that it will be just as easy to make Biodiesel from used oil using ethanol in your back yard." I can not answer that, because I never made biodiesel in my back yard. I look at biodiesel from an industrial point of view. Although my back yard would be large enough to set up a 40,000 to per year plant, I could not collect enough raw material in my neighbourhood. "The vast majority of people who have reported attempting to make biodiesel from WVO and ethanol have reported serious problems and frequent failure." Since I do not know the total number of your sample, I can only assume what "vast majority" means, but we can certainly agree on the following: WVO is not a "controlled" source of raw material and ethanol can react differently depending on the kind of raw material. It seems to me that you refer to people, who might no be working under the same production conditions like in an industrial environment, where you do not mind taking samples of your raw materials to change your "recipe" whenever it is necessary and where you keep the production conditions in a very tight corridor. "If you have done any tests I would be interested to hear what you have done and your results" Tests were easy: We took jatropha oil and we mixed it ethanol, we mixed ethanol with KOH, did our mambo-wambo and the result was biodiesel according to EN 14214, which is the European norm for biodiesel. Well, to be exact the biodiesel could not be according to EN 14214 since it is based on a methylester. But nobody expects an EU administrator to be perfect. BB, you just have to accept the fact that we do have done our homework, that we start setting up the biodiesel plant to produce 40,000 to of biodiesel with jatropha oil and ethanol as main components and that we will sell it. Sometimes, what might not be feasible or possible in a small scale, is very doable in an industrial scale. Michael BB

Hello bd100-mike Thank you for confirming that you do not have a clue what your are talking about. BB

Hi Billy Bob, I take that as a compliment. Nevertheless, consider that I am living in an environment where biodiesel awareness and availability is much higher than in your backyard. Perhaps it was too much reading for you, but I do not mind reading. So, why don't you name me the "Reports" claiming ethanol is not suitable for biodiesel production. I would be more than happy analyzing what they have to say. In case you consider Journey to forever a reliable source. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester There you have a step-by-step guide to produce ethylester - and they called it biodiesel.

Hello bd100-mike I do not think you should take that as a compliment. PLEASE DO NOT quote Journey to Forever as an authority on anything other than how to beg for donations by pretending you are going to use the donations to help the world's poor and needy while actually using the money for your own personal living expenses. I notice that you have been claiming for more that 2 years on this forum that you are in the process of building a biodiesel refinery using ethanol and Jatropha. Have you started construction or are you still just talking? You seem to think that because ethanol has a low flashpoint it is good for making biodiesel. Diethyl Ether has a lower flashpoint than ethanol. Does that mean that Diethyl Ether is even better than ethanol for making biodiesel? I do not think so. You seem to think that because people in Brazil use Ethanol as a fuel for their Spark Ignition engines that means that Ethanol is good for making biodiesel. Does that mean Petrol is also good for making biodiesel because it works well as a fuel in Spark Ignition engines? I do not think so. I was not aware that you had any knowledge of my backyard. Perhaps you could tell me the name and gender of the horses living in my backyard? I do find it amusing that you are now trying to say that I have suggested that Ethanol does not make biodiesel. We both know that is not the case nor my original concern. But, as you have mentioned the Journey To Forever site, I find it very appropriate that just today a person on Keith's discussion forum [url="http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/2005-September/004519.html"]posted:[/url] Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin To which one of the recognized "Backyard Ethanol Biodiesel Experts" [url="http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/2005-September/004523.html"] Replied:[/url] You probly know this already, but adding even 10-15% methanol to the anhydrous ethanol makes the reaction go markedly better. -K So I come back to my original question: "Can you be more specific about what you mean when you said: "ethanol is as good as methanol as long as you have high grade ethanol (99.5%)." That is certainly not my understanding. Most of the reports I have read says that you can not use ethanol with oil containing any amount of moisture or titrating higher than about 2 and even then it is a toss-up whether you will achieve seperation." BB

Hi Billy Bob, Of course, I did not take your comments as a compliment... But it seems to me that you can not make up your mind if I do not have an idea about biodiesel in general, about the production method or other issues (size of backyard for example). Let me remind you that the name of the subforum is "advanced biodiesel production methods"! I am not a JTF supporter in the sense of their "world goals", but I do think that they provide some valuabale information. With regards to the use of ethanol, they are right to say that you can produce biodiesel with ethanol taking under consideration the problems of handling the ethanol (mostly water content)and the problems related to your raw material. The original question ( to come back to the professional level) was, if it is feasible to use ethanol instead of methanol. My answer to that was yes, if you have "dry" ethanol (99.5%). If the price for the appropriate ethanol is less than methanol, it becomes even more feasible. Technically, you do not have to change the production method, but you have to keep an eye on your raw materials (water content, FFA etc.) and recovering the ethanol requires different equipment (molecular sieve). The flashpoint of ethanol is not the point. The question was ethanol vs. methanol. If you consider diethyl ester an alternative, feel free to educate us, but focus on the chemical aspects for the esterification process and not on the flashpoint. And if the characteristics of biodiesel could be improved by not using methanol (as a fossil oil derived product), we should consider that. Perhaps you might have the impression you are talking to a kid. Well I am not. You made the remark that methanol and ethanol are not good in diesel engines. From my answer to you that ethanol serves as a good fuel replacement in Brazil, you concluded that because Brazil has a high ethanol consumption in otto engines, I can use ethanol (or even petrol) nicely to produce biodiesel. This way of thinking is perhaps ok for a politician, but this is not a political forum. Nevertheless, ethanol is easy to blend with diesel and certainly with biodiesel and makes nice fuel. Before you get me wrong again, I am not saying that the ethanol/biodiesel blend should be used in any car, at any circumstances and only under parental guidance. But if you have a country with a nice source of ethanol you can certainly increase the use of it in generators, farm equipment, and trucks/busses driving a certain schedule. Furthermore, the temperature of the fuel after compression and of course in the cylinder are much higher than the ignition temperature of ethanol. Multi-fuel engines like pure ethanol very much. If you are located in a country which does not have oil resources, but access to own ethanol (which is the case in Ethiopia) they are motivated to use their own resources as much as they can. I apologize if I wrote or assumed that you had the opinion that ethanol can not make biodiesel. I am not aware of that, but to quote you: "You do not get the same type of biodiesel whether you use ethanol or methanol" and I do not agree with that. Ethanol is more sensitive to the water content of the raw oil and FFA content. Methanol react faster which is good for you if time matters and you can get it cheaper, easier etc. You state some comments about people having problems about using ethanol (Where do you get 100% ethanol or does it refer to the fact that the esterification is done 100% with ethanol?). But is the esterification with ethanol the problem or the "impurities" of the incredients, which do not lead to success? For analyzing the real problem, important information are not provided. Don't you agree? Ok, I will be more specifiec: Ethanol is as good as methanol as long as you have high grade/anhydrous ethanol (99.5%) and raw oil with no water content and low FFA. WVO might not be the right raw material choice and you want to consider other sources.Otherwise stay with methanol. Since you asked about my "history". I would not have entered this discussion two years ago as a "novice", but by I now I can say that I do have some knowledge about biodiesel. Not only because I have two biodiesel plants in my neighbourhood, but also because I still want to set up the plant in Ethiopia. The plant would be up and running by now, if we had the financing and more important the reliable raw material source. The production of biodiesel is my minor concern, because we know that Jatropha and ethanol make good biodiesel. Setting up a 50,000 ha plantation of Jatropha is much more of headache. Due to the increased oil/fuel prices we get more attention and I am very positive we will have the plant up and running next year. We will not have 100% production with Jatropha oil, but with other oils. Lastly, an engine related comment. THe ignitability of fuel meassured as cetan number (CZ) (ignitibility!) is more of importance to run the engine than the the fuels viscosity, which can be changed while going through the fuel line. Is pure ethanol a good fuel or is pure SVO a better fuel? The combination of both makes it a good fuel and overcomes the disadvantages of both pure fuels. Compare that with the "chemical cocktail" of today's diesel sold and it becomes a nice and simple alternative. Again, perhaps not to a high performing Mercedes or BMW, but biodiesel is not only limited to delicate car engines. Outside the US and Europe, mass transportation and power generation is of much higher importance. Michael

Hello bd100-mike I am not sure why you think I can not make up my mind. Everything you say seems to indicate that you do not know what you are talking about. I think I have said that from the very beginning. I went to the Journey to Forever site which you provided the hyperlink to and the first thing it says is: "Making ethyl-esters biodiesel using ethanol is a tricky process, not as simple as making methyl esters with methanol. But it can be done --" That completely contradicts your original statement that when it comes to making biodiesel "ethanol is as good as methanol" Even the Journey to Forever site says it is not. Amazing, Journey To Forever has something correct for once. So let me see if I have this clear, your biodiesel expertise comes from the fact that you live near two biodiesel plants and you want to build a biodiesel plant in Ethiopia as soon as someone will give you $40,000,000.00 US. You have sure convinced me, you certainly must be a biodiesel expert with those credentials. Hey, there is an Ostrich farm not far from where I live, does that make me an Ostrich expert? But finally, you have corrected your original inaccurate statement for something closer to reality by saying: "Ethanol is as good as methanol as long as you have high grade/anhydrous ethanol (99.5%) and raw oil with no water content and low FFA. WVO might not be the right raw material choice and you want to consider other sources. Otherwise stay with methanol." Any time you want more help understanding the finer points of biodiesel production or Ostrich husbandry just ask. BB

You are for sure an expert in not getting the message or trying to avoid the points... Are you telling me that making biodiesel (and handling methanol) is not a "tricky" process? Is the process less tricky or does ethanol just require a different - not to say better - raw material source to have stable and predictable process results? For me, the process is still the same, feasable and cost efficient, if the ethanol is available cheaper. And going through the several messages in this forum, people seem to have plenty of problems in producing methanol biodiesel from such an easy process. Do I have to assume that you are politician? Please, do not take that as an insult. But you are gifted to take out a sentence by avoiding to remember of what I said before. Again, ready for a mental challenge? If I am working on biodiesel and have the opportunity of having production facilities nearby, can you imagine that I developed a contact to the people? Perhaps we talk about the production, perhaps I have an interest in selling them jatropha oil. Yes, I do consider a 100,000 to production facility in my neighbourhood a valuable source of information and even expertise.(They have nice labs and biodiesel is a quality fuel around here, which means somebody kicks their ass if they do not produce high quality!) Do you consider yourself an expert, because you have internet access and produced how many gallons? By the way, do you have to be a cattle farmer or butcher to appreciate a good piece of meat? My "corrected inaccurate statement" is for people like you who need a sticker on their microwave for not putting the dog in or that coffee might be hot! Thanks for the Ostrich husbandry, but I lived long enough in Namibia and as matter of fact, we consider having a husbandry. Selam Michael

This back and forth stuff is getting no-where. :( What is needed is proof and/or links as to what works and what doesn't. This is what I as a newbie to this stuff, am looking for. :)

Hello 3rd_shift, welcome to the exciting world of biodiesel For the easiest method of making your first few mini-batches of biodiesel you can not beat the[url="http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=447609751&f=719605551&m=857600061"] World Famous Dr Pepper Technique[/url] (Pat Pend) Making biodiesel with methanol is so easy it should be illegal. BB

I tried it and it was fine until I tried washing the biodiesel. It emulsified too easily with water. [:(]

Hello 3rd_shift Congratulations on your first batch of biodiesel. Did you use the [url="http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=447609751&f=719605551&m=741607061&r=741607061#741607061"] World Famous Dr pepper Wash Technique[/url] (Pat Pend) to wash it? To break the emulsion try putting it into a small pan and heat to just below 100deg C (Water Boiling). Remember, the first three rules of washing are gently, gently, gently BB