Really, what are the drawbacks besides some reduced mileage if the tank were heated with modified block heaters? It could not be that hard to do...

ttgreh The risk with this technology is if the device malfunctiong, and the Biod heats up or is ignited, the explosion will be massive and insurance might not cover it. But a nice idea anyway. Personaly, i think the tank should be insulated by an electrical grid, wrapped in space age foam inulation. The tank should also be Aliminum or Stailess Steel.

Where exactly on the tank were you talking about? My idea would have the whole tank covered.

Well, an insulated tank coupled with a heating coil of some kind engineered to be unable to produce more heat than 80 degrees fahrenheit would go a long way to making gelling a thing of the past. I am quite sure Detroit or Tokyo could figure out a way to make it pretty damn reliable.

Heating the tank alone will not fix the cold weather issue. All it takes is one gelled region in ANY of the lines and it will not run. The entire fuel system would need to be heated in order to be able to run in the cold weather. Or somekind of a circulator system that would constantly send warmed fuel from the tank to all the lines and filters all the time.

Ok, would such a system dramatically affect fuel economy? Would an electrical heating system applied to the entire fuel system dramatically affect fuel economy? Honestly, did I just come up with a practical, easily implemented solution to the gelling problem? It can't be that easy, can it?

To heat the whole fuel system is not easy or particularly practical, but by no means impossible. There is a considerable line of products for diesel truck fuel systems to prevent gelling that could be modified to keep the system heated. Your fuel economy should not be affected. Or just blend your fuel when it gets cold. Kerosene is blended with diesel, you can blend kero with biodiesel as well.

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Originally posted by T-101
ttgreh The risk with this technology is if the device malfunctiong, and the Biod heats up or is ignited, the explosion will be massive ...

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Don't joke like this, people might believe you. Biodiesel has a flash point above 300 degrees F. You'd need a serious tank heater to set biodiesel afire. The problems with just heating the tank include the cold fuel lines, as already mentioned. I personally have a plastic fuel tank, which is a good insulator and will not pass the heat into the fuel. And you have to keep the fuel warm when parked. Greasecars have heated tanks for the WVO, so you are not alone in this area of inquiry. Personally I don't want to modify my car, I'd rather modify the fuel, it's simpler. But I would consider easy steps to higher biodiesel percentages in the winter. A heated fuel filter comes to mind. Bill

No, no. If we truly wish to wean ourselves off of petroleum diesel, a car needs to be MANUFACTURED to have a heated fuel line and tank. Assuming that it is reliable and economical enough, it would remove the need to cut BioD with anything. Really, an insulated garage and a battery powered heating system with the option to plug it in would remove from the equation gelled fuel.

They are working on issues with the fuel such as branched esters to take care of the gelling problems and more and more additives are coming online everyday. Someone is going to make something soon that works. Biodiesel is too new still to have any big investments on the gelling issues. But I bet in the next few years it will be solved.

Heating the fuel tank and the fuel filter, combined with antigel additives, can completely solve the cold weather issues, IMO. If the fuel lines are also heated, no antigel is necessary. Yellowstone National Park has been running a 1995 Dodge pickup with a cold weather package that included a tank heater (metal fuel tank with magnetic heat pad on the bottom) and heated filter (not sure about the fuel lines) on B100 without additives for 10 years now. The only time they've had any trouble was once when the temp dropped to -37F, and they couldn't get the truck to start. If we had metal fuel tanks, it would be an easy solution to stick a heating pad on the bottom of the fuel tank by the fuel pickup. THe problem is that most new cars use plastic fuel tanks, with poor thermal conductivity. To get any heat through, you have to have the heat pad so hot it starts melting the plastic - not good. We discussed this in another thread here a while back also.

Couldn't the heating system for the tank be IN the tank? Granted, there would still be issues, but if it does not touch the tank, it could heat the fuel directly, and then the air in the tank...

chemical bill I am highly aware of the flashpoint of biodielse. What i thought ttogreh was saying was to heat the core of the tank, and he did. The thing about sparks is that the temperature it produces is 500 degrees celcius. And since DC power heats faster, the risk would still be there. What I think we should do is wrap a copper tank in space age insulation and put grid heaters along the outside of the tank. Then thermostats could be placed in the tank and in the insulation to tell the electronics when to turn up the heat and when to shut it off. And as I say, put in the winter fuel mix to uncomplicate. I'm even thinking of mixing biodiesle with anti-freeze so the gas line runs smoothly. Hope this helps P.S.: Mike, your idea is backing up my ideas even beter now. Thanks. It's nice to have you back.

WHat are the emmisions with a biodiesel antifreeze mix? I read that glycerine could be used to make propylene glycol. Could the elimination of the gelling issue be as simple as using the glycerine to make antifreeze? How simple!

There is no need to heat the tank, just the fuel pick-up, the fuel lines, and the filters. Coolent source heat exchangers are way more practical than using low power - low voltage DC. Batteries simply don't have the energy density to provide any practical amount of heating, neither does the alternator. For larger diesels there is an efficient 110v immersion heater like a block heater and a small circ pump to circulate the warm coolent throughout the fuel heat transfer system. Simple and effective, no need to re-invnt the wheel.

what about fuel lines in coolant lines like the svo people do? i'm planning on putting bio in the reg. tank & adding svo kit. switching to dino in the reg. tank and bio in the svo tank in the winter.

just run the coolant lines and the fuel line together inside a tube of foam air-conditioning pipe insulation. there is no need to run the fuel line inside a coolant hose.

T-101 wrote:

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What I think we should do is wrap a copper tank in space age insulation and put grid heaters along the outside of the tank.

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Have you left biodiesel in contact with copper (or copper alloys such as brass)? Gelling will be a minor issue.

Consider making the best use of the heat you already have. Insulate the injection pump, filter and fuel lines to keep heat in the fuel to open the themostat valve to send that heat back to the tank. The exhaust pipe runs right by the fuel tank. There's heat in the exhaust. Any way to use that to heat the tank?

The tank is plastic, a good insulator. That's a good thing. You don't want a highly conductive tank that will easily transfer the heat you just put into the fuel out to the ambient. Check out the Arctic Fox website for ideas on how fuel is being warmed. Insulate the fuel filter and fuel lines between the pump and filter. Insulate the fuel pump. This will cause more fuel to be recycled through the tank. Watch your fuel temps with VAGCOM. Think in terms of conserving and using what heat you already have, and then augment as desired. But then there is always the cold start issue and how far are you willing to go to overcome that challenge.