Hi Andrew,

Did you try intermittent mixing ?    That is what I would like to try in the BioPro.   It works great in the CPP.  It should also work in the BioPro.

Thanks, Steve

stephend:

Hi Andrew,

Did you try intermittent mixing ?    That is what I would like to try in the BioPro.   It works great in the CPP.  It should also work in the BioPro.

Thanks, Steve

What exactly is "intermittent" mixing?

No, It was tricky enough just to get that thing to run it's programs right, let alone telling it to go on and off.

 

Do you think intermitent mixing is better than continuous?  Or, just as good with less work? 

Hi Andrew,

It works better.    I don't know if anyone has tried it in the BioPro.   

When we first learn to make biodiesel we do intermittent mixing in the Dr. Pepper method.   There is alot of info on this way of mixing. Read all posts by netural.

Then comes the appleseed that mixes all the time.   There are no tests that show continous mixing works better.  I believe in some cases continous mixing can slow down, stop,  then reverse the reaction. 

The leap from intermittent mixing to continous mixing was a marketing decision ?

Thanks, Steve

Hi old300D,

The way we learned to make biodiesel when we did the Dr. Pepper method.  There is alot of info on infopop about this way of mixing.  Read all posts by neutral.

The fact that you asked that question kind of shows how we forgot or got away from the great info Tilly and neutral left us with.

Give the Dr. Pepper thread a good read then give the Canoe Paddle Processor thread a good read.  

Thanks, Steve

stephend:

Hi old300D,

The way we learned to make biodiesel when we did the Dr. Pepper method.  There is alot of info on infopop about this way of mixing.  Read all posts by neutral.

The fact that you asked that question kind of shows how we forgot or got away from the great info Tilly and neutral left us with.

Give the Dr. Pepper thread a good read then give the Canoe Paddle Processor thread a good read.  

Thanks, Steve

No thank you.  There is way too much material for me to sort through.  It would be nice if you could just explain the term.  You claim a continuous mix will reverse the reaction?  If there is any truth to that, it is a secondary effect undetectable using a 3/27 test.

Hi old300D,

I have way more questions than answers.  I can't help myself.   I am a biodiesel head ! 

Somehow continous mixing can slow down or stop or reverse the reaction.   Given the power input and the mixing times of the appleseed compared to the CPP one could ask how more power input could cause a slower reaction.

Thanks, Steve

stephend:

Hi old300D,

I have way more questions than answers.  I can't help myself.   I am a biodiesel head ! 

Somehow continous mixing can slow down or stop or reverse the reaction.   Given the power input and the mixing times of the appleseed compared to the CPP one could ask how more power input could cause a slower reaction.

Thanks, Steve

And your evidence is ....  ?

Hi old300D,

That's my story and I am sticking to it !    At least I have one.  At least you have one !    Of all the people that read this stuff not too many have a story !  

Hands on homebrewing for 2 1/2 years. I am telling you things I have learned, for free !    Thank you for telling me things you have learned, for free !     In that time I have shown many pictures showing my biodiesel adventures.  I am not into biodiesel to sell stuff and I do not sell stuff.  I try to be an independent biodiesel reporter that owes to no one.

That's my story and I am sticking to it  !   

Thanks, Steve

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/402601061?r=602601061#602601061

 When you say intermitent mixing works beter than continuous mixing, how do you know?  

Under which conditions have you tested this idea?

Is it true under all conditions?

What is the ideal ratio of mixing to rest, assuming high conversion in the least time is my goal?

Please describe the testing that you have done to support your theory.

Once you do, I will describe my testing which supports the idea of continuous mixing. 

 

Also, Steve, do you want to move this discussion to a new thread?  Then, the thread could be on topic.. 

Hi Andrew,

In this thread neutral explains how to best mix biodiesel.  He is a PHD and did GC tests.

  http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/402601061?r=912601061#912601061 

I am not a PHD and I did 3/27 tests.  I can't prove him wrong.

When doing Pitbull pump mixing using lower amounts of methanol mixing too long would reverse the reaction.  I saw it using the 3/27 test.

I have not seen a reverse reaction mixing like neutral suggests.   When continious mixing with the PitBull I would have to do alot of 3/27 tests so that I did not mix too long and reverse the reaction.

Stir real hard until the thick stage is over gets things off to a good start.   The HF pump flow slows down during the thick stage and flows less when you need the good mixing the most.  How much the flow slows depends on the batch and the setup. 

Once the mix thins out the HF pump will flow more but that is when you need little mixing.  

Continous mixing would work better but you need to mix real hard then just an easy stir.

The continous mixing setup of the appleseed does the opposite. It gives an easy mix at first then after about 20 mins starts hard mixing the glycerin layer that forms on the bottom of the processor.  I would say this is continous mixing at its worse.

Thanks, Steve

Steve,

I don't think your logic holds up.  You have no real evidence to support your claims, that I can find, anyway.

No testing has shown a direct comparison of intermitent mixing to continuous mixing showing intermitent to be better.  If it has, please show me the specific post.

I continuous mix for up to 6 hours during 2 stage base base and still see improvments in 3/27 testing.

I have passed 3/27 with 14.5% methanol this way using 2 stage base/base.

My setup draws from the bottom and the upper layer to prevent separation/stratification.

The only way to cause a reverse reaction, in theory, is to remove methanol.  Think about it.  Longer mixing will always improve the product. 

 

Hi Andrew,

The only way for you to get real evidence would be for you to try it.   I don't think you read that thread I showed you carefully.  I am starting to think people don't read carefully.   I showed you that thread thinking you would discover the treasure of info in it without me having to explain it post by post.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/402601061?r=212601061#212601061

My testing with the CPP seems to confirm what neutral is saying.   There are many ways to mix biodiesel.  I have tried many ways.  Mixing like neutral suggests makes the easiest to wash biodiesel I have ever seen.   I like easy to wash biodiesel.  To me that is the main sign that it is high conversion and mixed right.  You asked what I thought was the best way to mix.  To me the best way to mix is the way that will make easy to wash biodiesel the fastest using the least amount of power.

Think about what you are saying.  You slowed the reaction down so that it took 6 hours ?   Mixing like that slowed down the reaction.

hang in there !     Steve

 Steve,

It is silly to think the mixing is slowing down the reaction.  It is silly to think the mixing is making the reaction go backwards.  There is no evidence to support this idea, and loads of evidence to support the opposite idea.  The mixing is not slowing down the reaction, it is the low methanol.  I can pass 3/27 in 40 minutes with 19% methanol single stage with my mixing, using the little $40 pump.

Please quote the part that you think proves your point.  I don't see it, and don't have time to re-read everthing to try to find what I might have to guess you are thinking about.  If you can't provide a quote or at least a specific post, author, page # ref., then this conversation is over.

 

Hi Andrew,

No one have ever proved anything to me online.   Proof requires testing and seeing it for yourself.   I offered  info that I learned by testing it out.  If you don't have the time to carefully read or do the testing there is no way I can prove anything to you.

If you can mix a batch of easy to wash homebrew biodiesel in 6 hours then more power to you.

Thanks, Steve

P.S.  The info on how to see what I am seeing is printed below.  I told you about this info about 8 months ago and suggested you check it out or  I would leave you way behind.

Steve,

 I guess you are back to the old Steved...

 Carefully read what?  Please quote the part of the discussion which makes you think that intermitent mixing is beter, set aside whether or not it proves it.

By the way, when was the last time you made high conversion BD with 14.5% methanol? 

Hi Andrew

Intermittent mixing is when you mix then stop then mix then stop. Thet timing of these starts and stops is a subject I am interested in.

Continous mixing is when you don't stop mixing duing the process

examples of intermittent mixing  are

1. dr. pepper method.

2. canoe paddle processing

3. 2 stage base base

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intermittent

 

 Steve,

I think I understand the words continuous and intermittent.  But thanks for that.

Still, you provide no specific report of results, tests or even comparitive observations to support your claim that intermittent mixing is better than continuous mixing.  I wait for you to support your claim with something other than links which do not got to comparitive test or invitations for me to test your theory.  Let me know when you have ANYTHING to support for your theory.

I have seen fuel pass 3/27 with a modified Dr. Pepper method, using continous hard shaking for 5 min. 

Hi Andrew, 

I showed you.  2 stage base base is INTERMITTENT mixing.    We are agreeing ! ! !

You have proved to me you are not a careful reader and you really like to argue ! ! !

You will argue with someone who agrees with you ! ! !  

Thanks, Steve

stephend:

Hi Andrew,

In this thread neutral explains how to best mix biodiesel.  He is a PHD and did GC tests.

  http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/402601061?r=912601061#912601061 

I am not a PHD and I did 3/27 tests.  I can't prove him wrong.

When doing Pitbull pump mixing using lower amounts of methanol mixing too long would reverse the reaction.  I saw it using the 3/27 test.

I have not seen a reverse reaction mixing like neutral suggests.   When continious mixing with the PitBull I would have to do alot of 3/27 tests so that I did not mix too long and reverse the reaction.

Stir real hard until the thick stage is over gets things off to a good start.   The HF pump flow slows down during the thick stage and flows less when you need the good mixing the most.  How much the flow slows depends on the batch and the setup. 

Once the mix thins out the HF pump will flow more but that is when you need little mixing.  

Continous mixing would work better but you need to mix real hard then just an easy stir.

The continous mixing setup of the appleseed does the opposite. It gives an easy mix at first then after about 20 mins starts hard mixing the glycerin layer that forms on the bottom of the processor.  I would say this is continous mixing at its worse.

Thanks, Steve

Steve, in your 5 year old thread, please point out where you think neutral supports your supposition.  Hint:  the word "reverse" is not in the thread.  However, I did find this statement by neutral that seems to contradict you:

It stands to reason however that the reaction must go slower when not stirred, as the bulk of the catalyst and methanol are in the bottom layer. The methanol would be able to diffuse upward as consumed but this would be slow compared with scattering the glycerine layer through the esters by stirring.