Hello Experts, at it again.

I'm finally ready to get going on the processing and have a few last questions:

1) Is liquid, hydrogenated soybean WVO a good product to process or bad?? (I have the opportunity to get 100gal/week from a friend who is manager of a restaurant)

2) does sulfuric acid eliminate titration and or WVO cleaning before processing??

3) Which is better: NOH or KOH??

4) Could I use a 75gal propane WH, instead of an electric water heater, if I decide to make my own "Appleseed" processor??

5) Does a Purolite Ion filter system, (as used by Beach Bio), eliminate washing after processing??

6) Is 120 deg. F of the oil at the pump hot enough to process properly??

 

Thanks in advance.....

Thomas

 

 

"Is liquid, hydrogenated soybean WVO a good product to process or bad?? "

It will work fine. The BD might gel in the upper 30's but it will work great!

"does sulfuric acid eliminate titration and or WVO cleaning before processing??"

Not quite, but if your oil titrates 12 or below KOH you can use 1ml/L concentrated sulfuric, at 130F, mixing for 6 - 8 hrs. It would be best to titrate at that time, unless you want to take a shot at using 12g/L of KOH (assuming a titration of 4).

"Which is better: NAOH or KOH??"

We like KOH for convenience and forgiveness. NAOH will make glycerin gel at room temp. and if you have high titrating oil it can gell the whole batch during processing. You can over shoot the KOH and be ok, but with more soap. If you overshoot with NAOH you get glop.

"Could I use a 75gal propane WH, instead of an electric water heater, if I decide to make my own "Appleseed" processor??"

I would NOT want an open flame anywhere near working with or storing methanol.

"Does a Purolite Ion filter system, (as used by Beach Bio), eliminate washing after processing??"

I have no experience with that, but yes it is possible. search on the GL process. That is demething the BD and filtering the soap out. Basically the soap is dissolved in the methanol.

"Is 120 deg. F of the oil at the pump hot enough to process properly??"

Given enough time it will. 135F is much better. For each 10deg. C drop in temp it will take twice as long to react.

 Good questions. Good luck!

Bob

Hello Bob,

Thanks for your great answers.

As you might have guessed, most of the questions relate to which reactor I should get, although I'm still leaning towards a BioPro. I should probably find someone locally who has one so that could see it in action.

Why would Beach Bio only go up to 120 deg. F, is it because of the plastic tanks?

Good call on the OPEN flame.

Thomas 

"Why would Beach Bio only go up to 120 deg. F, is it because of the plastic tanks?"

Must be.

Stay waaaayyy away from plastic processors. Especialy with plastic plumbing and valves!! Plastic is ok for washing and storage, but not heat.

Bob

bobabbey:

Plastic is ok for washing and storage

Plastic isn't even suitable for storage. From the NREL Biodiesel Handling Guide:

(Page 9-10) B100 may permeate some typical types of plastics (polyethylene*, polypropylene) over time and they should not be used for storing B100. 

*Note that plastic processors are made from polyethylene.

So you guys are saying I shouldn't even use those 250 gal. totes for WVO and or B100 storage after processing??

Thomas

Thomas Schwaiger:

So you guys are saying I shouldn't even use those 250 gal. totes for WVO and or B100 storage after processing??

WVO should store in plastic containers reasonably well, though this may not be up to state code regulations. Did you read the NREL guide? The National Renewable Energy Laboratories are leading researchers in biofuels and alternative energy research in this US. They made the statement about plastic being inappropriate for storage of Biodiesel.

Well, that's not good!

Up until now I got my B100 deliveries from my fuel supplier in 250 gal plastic totes.

Thomas

All biodiesel and blends I've seen transported was in stainless (or aluminum) tankers. Ask your supplier about the totes and why they use them. Ask them if they know about the guide too.

Veg oil is delivered in HDPE cubies.

We have fuel jugs for diesel made of HDPE that have held up well for 2 1/2 yrs use with biodiesel.

We also have HDPE wash tanks that have sat almost contiuously for 2 1/2 yrs with biodiesel in them. There is no noticable change at all.

PVC softens over time.

It is true some plastics just turn to goo when in contact with biodiesel.

"plastic" is really a broad term including many different chemical blends.

Bob

Bob,

The NREL Guide specifies polyethlene as a plastic to avoid and this would include HDPE. Most inductors are LDPE - some are MDPE - the best are XLPE. Speculating, I'd assume there are not all equally resistant.

I'll contact NREL (unless you have the time) to see if they'll elaborate.

 

My supplier said comparing the cost of polymers to stainless it makes more sense to replace the plastic ones more often

Does BioPro have a dealer or customer in my area so that I can see one in action. I live in Murrieta, CA 92562

(I'm voting for the 190)

Thomas

 I'll answer those I feel I can help with:

1.  It depends on what temp. you plan to use the fuel.  It can make fine fuel for use above 60f or so.  Might be fine below that.  You'd have to test.  By the way, don't eat there. 

2.  No.  TItration is part of the process and not hard at all.

3.  I use KOH.  It is easier to disolve and the byproduct stays liquid.  Also, it can be used to push the reaction without risk of gel.

4.  Yes and no.  You can use the tank, and heat by some other means.  I would not suggest that you have flame near methanol.

5.  No oppinion/no experience.

6.  I like hotter temps.  The only down side (in theory) to cooler is the reaction will take longer.   It has been said that each 10 degrees C hotter cuts the time needed in half.  In my experience it might not be quite that much, but it does help.

HTH. 

 

As far as temperature goes John Stephenson from BeachBio told me that anything over 125 deg. F is bad for the reaction because it breaks down the molecules and makes them vulnerable to impurification??

But here is the $ 4,000 question: Why does it take the BioPro150 48 hours to finished product and the BeachBio B60 only 6 hours to finished product???????????????

What am I missing?

Thomas

Thomas, 

Given what you were told, everything about this reaks of swindle. There are other folks out there selling similar machines that don't make such outrageous and flatly false claims.

Thomas Schwaiger:

As far as temperature goes John Stephenson from BeachBio told me that anything over 125 deg. F is bad for the reaction because it breaks down the molecules and makes them vulnerable to impurification??

This is nonsense. ALL industrial production of biodiesel is done at elevated temperatures.

Thomas Schwaiger:

But here is the $ 4,000 question: Why does it take the BioPro150 48 hours to finished product and the BeachBio B60 only 6 hours to finished product???????????????

I think that 6-hours method employs little magical elves - that or there's a huge centrifuge included that's not shown in the picture. Glycerin separation from the raw biodiesel and water wash separation both take the same amount of time to settle, regardless of the processor (actually, the BioPro water wash separation will be faster as the wash is heated). Beach may have eliminated the water wash with the beads, but to use the resins, the methanol needs to be removed (there are numerous other complications with this technique, too). I don't even see a provision for that on their machine (probably because it's a complicated and dangerous technique that must be done carefully and correctly).

Have you considered building your own Appleseed-style machine? It's not that difficult to assemble, you can buy kits[1][2] that include tested, compatible parts, and you'll know what you're paying for, in detail, before you buy. You can find lots of other folks that have them and are willing to share their experiences. It's just a much more transparent way to get a processor and it can be fun. You might even find someone willing to help you in your area.

Hello Erik,

Thanks for your reply. This is sooo exhausting. The last two days I've been trying to find a local dealer for methanol and or KOH. Very hard in my area, I tell you.

I'm also trying to find someone with ANY processor in my area I can have a peek at, to now prevail.

I've thought about making an Appleseed processor, (that's why I asked about the propane heater, since I just replaced the one in my house), but I am shying away a little bit about the additional equipment needed to get the washing and drying done. I just like the compact machines that do it all in one swoop.

I probably fold soon and throw all my measly dollars at the electric car concept.

Thomas

 

There are folks with BioPros in Oxnard and San Diego. Before you give up on biodiesel, go check one of them out. (Admittedly, I like the electric vehicle idea, but it's not an option on the farm or in our very cold winters.)