Re: 08 Grand Cherokee CRD

Hello magconpres,

Do you have any more information on bd use in your '08 vehicle, and are you running b100 anytime soon?

Thomas

I was hoping this topic was still HOT.

Thomas

Tom,

I haven't moved beyond B5 yet, but am about to.

I just sent my third sample of oil off for analysis.  That will complete my baseline.

My wife drives the car and doesn't rack up too many miles. so this is taking some time.

My next tank will be B20.

I am still trying to find information regarding this specific high pressure pump used (Bosch CP03) and biodiesel.

Also, there is an ariticle out there somewhere (from Africa, I think) on a sutdy of the effects of biodiesel on engine parts and some sepcific additives showing promise in eliminating any build up.  The additives were an SC Delco product, but I can't recall which.  I am tyring to locate the article again.

On JeepForums.com there is a member who is running B100 and has I think close to 20k miles.  There are some other members running B20 as well.

Given the Mercedes engine and the widespread use of BD in Europe, I think as long as the fule quality is good, I should be OK.

I plan to take some preventive measures: monitor my oil quality with analysis, extrac filter/water separator/heater, additive to reduce sludging.

Edit:  I found the article.  Here's a link : http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2007/december/biodiesel.htm

Thanks,

I'll check it out.

Thomas

I haven't seen anything new regarding the DPF and biodiesel, but I keep looking.

I finally got my 3rd oil analysis back and will be switching to B20 with my next tank.

From what I've read from others, I don't expect any problems.  The real concern is with long term problems though.  With the DPF, I am primarily concerned with the impacts of the BD on the motor oil, hence my obsession with oil analysis.

I also plan to get a water separator/heater installed soon, though probably not before my first tank of B20.

Finally got my first tank of B20 and though I am only 1/4 through it, no problems, not that I expected any.  I've started a thread at jeepforum.com to start collecting mileage and issues from others running BD in a Grand Cherokee.  Not a lot of resonsed yet, but I do have one post stating 14,000 miles on B20 since new with no problems.

Rich, where can I get some of this 12V electric tape?

magconpres

What about the DPF?  I got these responses on a Jeep forum:

"From what I hear, the biggest problem with running BD in these modern diesels with the DPFs is with the regeneration cycle. Apparently running BD that hot can lead it to coat the cylinder walls with residue of some sort. "

There are 2 issues w/ running bio 1) injection system durability and 2) oil dilution caused by the post injections necessary for DPF regen. A secondary filter and more importantly water separator will help with issue 1) but don't count on any warranty coverage when they find out you've run more than B5.

Issue 2) is the bigger deal: to heat the DPF for a regen this engine relies on in-cylinder post injection... a late injection way after TDC puts additional HC's in the exhaust to oxidize in the first cat and create heat for the regen. High % bio fuels have a tendancy to get into the crankcase via wall wetting, will dilute the oil, then prematurely oxidize the oil creating sludge.

While in general terms bio vs conv will produce less particulate with the same calibration, it still produces PM and you will still have to regen the DPF with some frequency. DPF regens are triggered by exceeding a set differential pressure across the DPF (measured with a sensor). As it fills up, restriction goes up.

 

What type of DPF does this engine use? (cordierite wall flow, silicon carbide wall flow, metal fiber flow through, or paper)

As I understand it, one issue is the flash point of biodiesel being so much higher than petrodiesel (400degF vs 180degF), so when the in-cylinder post-injection takes place more of the biodiesel does not burn, wetting the cylinder walls and getting into the motor oil.  Also, there may be a question of gumming the DPF because of the incomplete burn, which in turn depends upon the type of DPF used and what additional means of heating is used during Regeneration (engine management that increases exhaust temp, fuel borne catalyst to reduce soot burn out temp, in-exhaust fuel burner, catalytic oxidizer known as HC-Doser, resistive heating coils, or microwave energy).  Anyone know exactly how the Regeneration is performed in this vehicle?

magconpres

I poked around under the car and around the engine today.  I was thinking I might add a Racor filter/water separator/heater and was looking for a good place to mount it.  I was also trying to see what the fuel lines looked liked.  What I found out was that the Jeep has steel fuel lines from the tank up to the engine bay.  Then a short run of rubber hose within a steel braided sheeth, then some more steel lines, then a short run (about 3 inches) of rubber to the filter and another peiece of rubber from the filter to the injection pump.  The filter itself is located within the V of the V-6 moto.  If I was to mount another filter, I wouldn't want to cutn any of the stock line to do it, so I would route the fuel line from the end of the steel line near the stock filter to the an open area on the firewall opposite the glovebox, then back to the stock filter.

SO...did you ever add that extra fuel filter?  What make/model of filter did you wind up using, and does it have water separation and heater?  How did the location for installation work out?

I want to add a larger fuel filter, ideally with water separation and heater.  Ideally, I'd like to locate it back at the fuel tank to heat the fuel before it goes down the fuel line; however, there isn't much space there and the Raycor filters I've seen so far are physically too large for there.  I read where a guy routed engine coolant lines to the fuel tank to use for heating the biodiesel inside the tank, but I'm thinking maybe electric heat of some kind for winter, as that should be an easier to install.

magconpres

II finally got my 3rd oil analysis back and will be switching to B20 with my next tank.

Where do you send your oil to for analysis?

FWIW, I now have 6800mi on mostly B20, several tanks of B50, and only 3 tanks of petrodiesel.  No problems.  My engine seems to be slightly quieter when running on the B50, but it's very subtle.  No oil change yet, but after reading about this motor oil issue, I'm thinking to take it in for an oil change asap; it would be interesting to know what condition the oil is in before I do, tho.  I hear that the synthetic oil and oil filter for this vehicle is almost insanely expensive, and 10qts at that; one owner found a deal buying oil in bulk, but no suitable substitute for the filter yet that can stand up to the solvent action of the biodiesel.

eeeehaw

Where do you send your oil to for analysis?

Give George at AVLUBE a call ... or just order one of the kits.

http://avlube.com/oilandfuanki.html

Hi Guys:

Just stumbled into your discussion here. Been looking at DPFs for several months.  The enemy of the DPF is ash deposition.  That is why you have to use special low ash oil with less ZDDP.  BioDiesel is higher in ash than ULSD.  The DPF will probably clog up faster using a higher ash fuel.  The dealer will tell you that the DPF has to be replaced then, but there are certain applications (mining) where DPFs are removed for cleaning and the ash blown or sucked out.  You can't just take the thing off without reprogramming the ecu because of a lot of reasons:  including pressure sensors before and after DPF, mileage timed active regenerations, post secondary injection events specifically to heat and light the DPF, and the low pressure egr relies on soot free exhaust to work properly.  Thats just part of it - it goes on and on.  Hope this helps

I've got a 2007 Grand Cherokee CRD that I picked up new a year ago February. I don't have reliable biodiesel supplies here, but have run up to B20 when I can get it.  I really want to run >B20 all the time.  Anyone have any updates about the use of this fuel in the 07/08 Grand Cherokees?

Thanks!

Hi wwrivers,

I too am researching like crazy to make the CRD bio friendly, (have been looking for over a year for a GC Overland CRD).

If your GC doesn't have the DPF yet you should be fine.

How do owners WITH DPF fair on bio??

Thomas

I have a 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland w/Daimler 3.0L CRD diesel engine.  I have been running it on biodiesel since I bought it new, beginning with the first tank fueling.  I have a bit over 25K miles on it now after driving it for 13 months.  I initially was using B20, as at the time there was no higher blend available within the normal driving area, but have been using primarily B50 for the past 6 mos and occasionally B99 when I am near a station that offers that.  Commercially produced fuel only (NO homebrew).

NO PROBLEMS at all.

I keep meticulous logs of fuel consumption, even calculating cost per mile (the most important cost figure).  I have run the vehicle about 5 tanks on  100% petrodiesel, primarily on vacation trips where biodiesel was unavailable or I didn't know where it was at or when nearbiod.com (a website for helping you find BD stations across the US) showed a station too far out of the way.  I have noticed NO difference between fuel mileage, although the cost per mile is typically a penny more with BD at the prices I pay for it.

The engine in the 2008 GCs is a Daimler BlueTec, and yes it of course does have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter), as virtually required by US EPA regs beginning in 2007 (ie, max limit on particulate emissions).  The method used for cleaning the DPF ("regeneration cycle" or "cleaning cycle") in some OEM engines has caused a compatibility problem with BD, esp the higher blends, which results in symptoms that include Check Engine lite coming on, rough idle, loss of power, and a limit on speed; the most famous example currently is the new 2009 VW Jetta diesel engine.  The Daimler (Mercedes) diesel engines do NOT have these problems, as their design is BD-compatible.

I have since come across two other owners of 2008 Jeep GC diesels who also regularly run BD; one guy said he exclusively runs B99 as he lives near a station that sells it.  I have also spoken to owners of the 2008 and 2009 Mercedes R320 CDI (diesel) that uses the same engine (the 2009 adds urea injection to reduce NOx emissions to the EPA limit that began in 2009) that runs B20.  There is an owner of a 2008 Dodge Sprinter, which likewise uses the same engine, living in my small town who has a biodiesel bumper sticker on her vehicle, altho I have not spoken to her about it; she's owned her vehicle for at least 18 mos now.

Of course, Jeep and Mercedes both certify compatibility with B5 max.  In fact, Jeep fueled my vehicle before it left the factory with B5 (to show how "green" they are).  I spoke to a fleet salesman at the dealer I bought my vehicle from, and he said that his dealership  supports up to B50 use in all Dodge/Jeep vehicles that are sold in a minimum quantity fleet volume if the customer requires it (and he then went on to spout about what a competitive advantage he had over Ford PowerStroke diesels, which reportedly have problems running BD beginning in 2007).  He also told me last Jan that Dodge/Jeep was intending to bump up certification of their diesel vehicles to B20 as a result of testing they had performed; since then, the bankruptcy/downsizing of the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep occured and with the acquisition by Fiat that did not happen.  Fiat, like nearly all European OEMs, produce diesel vehicles, and one of their engine suppliers is VM Motori (Italy), which is the company that supplied Jeep with diesel engines for their Liberty & Wrangler models and pre-2007 Grand Cherokee model.  But, VM Motori was 50% owned by GM at the beginning of 2009 (other half mostly by Penske Corp of US).  Thus, it remains to be seen what, if anything, Jeep with do for their next diesel engines.

The 2009 Jeep GC is not available with a diesel engine option; that despite portions of their website saying otherwise still.  Apparently, the re-organizaiton of the company has left direction and questions answered at this time (fall 2009).

Again, I have had NO problems running as high as B99 in my 2008 Jeep GC diesel.  I have gone through a full season now, altho I live in a very temperate climate in Western WA that rarely sees freezing temps (I run B20 during those times).  I have investigated adding a Raycor fuel heater and 1micron filter, but haven't yet gotten around to it...and it looks like I'm not needing it yet even though this is my "ski vehicle" that regularly makes day trips to the slopes in the Cascade Mountains (still, temps above 25degF typically).  Those who are concerned about fuel gelling in this vehicle should check out Raycor's fuel heaters...they make a model that you should mount back at the fuel tank and which heats the fuel circulating through the fuel supply & return lines into the tank, thus eventually heatng the tanks up also.  The filter for this engine is purposedly mounted by the OEM right onto/above the engine to take advantage of engine heat (this doesn't help the fuel lines much), but it is only a 10micron filter (not really good enough for petrodiesel particulates IMO).

Just a note about OEM warranties: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, a federal statute, prevents a denial of warrantly coverage on any problems NOT caused by third party products.  Since OEMs have no control over the performance or quality of third party products, is is not reasonable to expect them to repair problems caused by those products.  Eg, if you replace your exhaust system with a 3rd party "high performance" exhaust that subsequently causes engine problems as a result of lowered back-pressure, and the warranty provider can show enough evidence to "prove" their claim, then they can deny warranty coverage for the repair...but ONLY for that particular repair, it does NOT void or cancel the warranty originally provided (this is in part why the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act exists).  The same applies to fuels used in your vehicle.  IF you fill up your tank with a bad batch of petrodiesel, and that fuel causes an engine problem, and the service shops shows clear evidence that the fuel caused the failure, then the warranty coverage can be denied for that repair.  It doesn't matter whether it was petrodiesel, biodiesel, or gasoline that was put into the tank...the warranty conditions remain the same.  Just because an OEM has not "certified" compaibility with biodiesel is irrelevant...they cannot deny warranty coverage on your engine repairs simply because you told them that you use biodiesel...they have to show evidence that a failure was caused by the fuel.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: when I do take my vehicle in for service, it has a "biodiesel" ticker prominently displayed on the rear.  That may not be wise for some owners dependent upon repair shops looking for ways to cause you headaches; my service shop does not fall into that category.  They even changed my fuel filter prematurely upon my request with no questions asked during one of the regular maintenance intervals (just a safety measure, I wasn't experiencing any problem).  Again, a service shop cannot deny you warranty coverage just because they think you're using biodiesel fuel...they have to show clear evidence that whatever fuel you used cause the failure.  Otherwise, they are violating a federal statute (Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act), and since such federal offenses have repurcussions back to the OEM you should see the problem quickly resolved after complaining directly to the OEM in most cases.

Thank you SOOO much for your great info. Very informative and the first incouraging comment on the CRD. Now I just have to find one and convince my wife to put bio in this vehicle.

Thomas